Edge lit DCG

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Edge lit DCG

by Dinesh » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:48 pm

Martin
Thanks for the paper. I noticed a couple of things. From his equation 2 for the penetration depth, z_0

z_0 = lambda_0/(2pi(n^2*sin^2(phi) - 1)(^0.5))

that z_0 is inversely proportional to the index. Thus, the larger the index, the smaller the penetration depth. This may explain the difference you noted.

Also, he uses a prism to launch the light. It may be that to achieve the proper TIR for these high indices, you need a prism, but then, to me anyway, the advantage of edge lit is lost. For me, the beauty of edge lit is its simplicity. If you need a prism to reconstruct, I think simplicity is lost. However, to launch without a prism may need thicker emulsions and that may also be a source of the disparity between thin and thick emulsions for edge lit.

Edge lit DCG

by Martin » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:47 am

Dinesh wrote:Strictly speaking, the evanescent wave needs only a few wavelength, so a micron or two should be enough.
Apparently, it can be even much thinner - 8nm thickness only in this case: http://www.physik.tu-berlin.de/institut ... sainov.pdf
However, in order to launch, or create, an evanescent wave you need to match to the specific index. It may be that whether it needs a thick or thin emulsion depends on the index.
OK, thanks.

Edge lit DCG

by Dinesh » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:19 pm

BobH wrote: Only cost forty million,
Forty million, huh? Ours cost about 10 bucks (and a pound of hamburger meat...no, I'm joking!). By the way, before you blow a gasket, I realise that yours is a lot more sophisticated than ours! I had no specific end in mind, just an idle thought "Can you launch an evanescent wave into a dcg emulsion. If so, you don't need large launching glass and index matching (Ug!)"
BobH wrote: Biggest problem now is ITO reflectivity at high angles of incidence!
You might want to talk to Steve Smith. I threw him out an idea at San Fransisco that had to do with ITO's and it may be that you're also working along those lines.
Martin wrote: I remember being struck by the discrepancy that some people used extremely thin recording materials (e.g Sainov) whereas others (Phillips) did use quite thick photopolymers.
Strictly speaking, the evanescent wave needs only a few wavelength, so a micron or two should be enough. However, in order to launch, or create, an evanescent wave you need to match to the specific index. It may be that whether it needs a thick or thin emulsion depends on the index.
Jeffrey Weil wrote:Are you and Joy going to be in the lab after Holopack? I'd like to take you up on your offer to see your place.
We may actually be there this year, since Vegas is just around the corner for us. However, whether we're there or not, we'll be back here afterwards. So, certainly come over.

Edge lit DCG

by BobH » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:33 am

Digilens was making evanescent wave HOEs in 2002 for a telecom application. Our electrically switchable hologram material with a chirped grating was in contact with a waveguide, essentially a switchable cladding, and used as a dynamic gain equalizer. It worked but couldn't be kept in calibration. Only cost forty million, as the telecom industry was crashing down around us. Now I'm making edgelit HOEs for other applications. The current ones are recorded in UV and used in IR. Biggest problem now is ITO reflectivity at high angles of incidence!

Edge lit DCG

by Martin » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:29 am

Dinesh wrote:True edge lit holograms would require that the reference is an evanescent wave. However, such a reference is neither reflection nor transmission. People have used very (very!) steep angles in both geometries and called it "edge lit" but then one requires large prisms or blocks of glass. I reasoned that if it could be possible to generate an evanescent wave along the surface of the emulsion, then blocks of glass or large prisms would not be necessary. But, it's very difficult to produce an evanescent wave, you have to hit the back end of the emulsion at ju-u-st the total internal reflection angle. So, I reasoned that if the emulsion were thicker than would be found in commercial silver, I'd have a better chance.
I see. Speaking of evanescent waves, I remember being struck by the discrepancy that some people used extremely thin recording materials (e.g Sainov) whereas others (Phillips) did use quite thick photopolymers.

Edge lit DCG

by Jeffrey Weil » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:05 pm

Hey Dinesh,

Don't even try to fix the terminology, it's a total mess. Just dealing with the word "stereogram" could start a thread that goes on forever and destroys civilization as we know it.

Now you want to rename the achromatic angle, that term has been published too many times to go back now.

It's an impossible battle, fixing holographic terminology. It's like PC vs. Apple, or who invented dot matrix holography first. I say just make cool images and enjoy life.

Are you and Joy going to be in the lab after Holopack? I'd like to take you up on your offer to see your place.

Jeff

Edge lit DCG

by Dinesh » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:09 am

Martin wrote:Well, from what I read, you can have it both ways: there are edge lit reflection and edge lit transmission holograms. But they rely on different recording geometrics.
Actually, Martin, that's part of the problem. What exactly does "edge lit" mean. True edge lit holograms would require that the reference is an evanescent wave. However, such a reference is neither reflection nor transmission. People have used very (very!) steep angles in both geometries and called it "edge lit" but then one requires large prisms or blocks of glass. I reasoned that if it could be possible to generate an evanescent wave along the surface of the emulsion, then blocks of glass or large prisms would not be necessary. But, it's very difficult to produce an evanescent wave, you have to hit the back end of the emulsion at ju-u-st the total internal reflection angle. So, I reasoned that if the emulsion were thicker than would be found in commercial silver, I'd have a better chance.
Martin wrote:On the other hand, isn't it that processing DCG above 30µm or so becomes increasingly difficult too? So maybe the ultimate recording medium for this might be photopolymers (there are a couple of papers by Phillips where he described the use of Omindex films for edge lit applications).
I've thought of polymers for edge lit. I think there would be a great advantage, if the polymer were uniform throughout the thickness. This is what I meant when I said that dcg was a continuous medium; the index has to be (reasonably) continuous in order to produce evanescent waves. I think that the granularity of silver may prevent evanescent waves inside a silver emulsion.
favalora wrote:That's cool, Dinesh. I just Tweeted about it (for all of the, like, 9 people who follow me who aren't spambots). Fame! Fame for you!

You, too, can follow me, at @gfavalora .

Thanks, Favalora! As for tweeting, I'm afraid I have no idea how to do that! I'm afraid I'm the Last of the Luddites. My sister-in-law saw me whip an egg for an omelet with a fork and informed me that there was now a machine for whipping eggs. "Why ?", I asked. Actually, I just discovered texting. It's actually quite interesting, you don't have to indulge in unnecessary conversation. It took me about 3 minutes to text, "I'm at the pub" (the apostrophe threw me, I couldn't figure out how to generate an apostrophe). Now if I could generate equations on the keypad and text those.....
Jeffrey Weil wrote:It's a black and white transmission hologram developed by Steven Benton. It's related to a rainbow holograms, sometimes also known as a Benton type hologram.
Well, yes and no. It's one of the problems of holography that there's a surfeit of names and they all get in each others way. The so-called "achromat angle" comes because Benton used the association of the lens equation with Fresnel diffraction. This is a standard method of analysing Fresnel diffraction, but Benton applied it to the slits from an H1. Using this association Benton calculated that the slits are focused at different positions and angles relative to the H1, but they fall along a straight but slanted line. If the H1(s) is similarly slanted with three slits at rgb, then all the slits would superimpose and you'd get true colour.

However, the word "achromat" has also been applied to a hologram made with open aperture in transmission mode. In this mode, the H1 pseudoscopic image is focused onto the H2 plate (as normal), but the H1 is not slitted. If the image is focused at exactly the image plane, there is no dispersion because dispersion is a function of the image point's distance from the image plane. If the image is right at the plane, dispersion is zero. In practice, you can have an image that's about an inch in front and about an inch and a half behind and still get almost no dispersion. You can make it deeper using dispersion compensation, but you have to ask Kaveh abut that!

Edge lit DCG

by Jeffrey Weil » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:20 pm

favalora wrote:Achromatic Benton B+W hologram?
Hello Favalora,

It's a black and white transmission hologram developed by Steven Benton. It's related to a rainbow holograms, sometimes also known as a Benton type hologram.

Its made by producing a horizontal parallax only master and transferring it to the h2 while being tipped at the so called "achromatic angle" This make a b+w hologram with very little chromate dispersion in the vertical axis.

They are beautiful when done correctly.

Jeff Weil

Edge lit DCG

by favalora » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:28 pm

That's cool, Dinesh. I just Tweeted about it (for all of the, like, 9 people who follow me who aren't spambots). Fame! Fame for you!

You, too, can follow me, at @gfavalora .

Achromatic Benton B+W hologram? I have a lot to learn. I'll need to Google around for photos of that.

Regarding edge-lit stuff at the Media Lab. I could have sworn Arno Klein was working on that, too, right? (He was my "host" during my grad school interviews there.) http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/prof ... ffil=NYSPI I vaguely recall his being roommates with the co-founder of E-Ink, Barrett Comiskey, still a student at the time. Who knew that he was about to launch a multi-billion dollar industry...

But I digress.

g

Edge lit DCG

by Jeffrey Weil » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:35 pm

I did remember it incorrectly. The version I saw was a benton style achromatic transmission . B+W

Jeff W

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