Lunar Surface hologram

Topics not fitting anywhere else.
Martin

Lunar Surface hologram

Post by Martin »

Dinesh wrote:But Lippman never claimed that the "reconstruction" method was diffraction.The the essential difference of phase capture is never mentioned.
When did the term "phase" (and, linked to that, "coherence length") come up first? Was it connected to the invention of the laser?

The phase of what? The phase of a point source at any distance r is simply kr. If you used the Lippman technique on a point source, you would not get iso-phase contours that go as kr. Also, would it be a Lippman photograph of a point source. What exactly is a "Lippman photograph"? An amplitude recording of a scene with colour added, as Lippman himself described it? Or a phase and amplitude recording as described by Denisyuk? If the former, would you see simply a point, or a dot, on the Lippman surface?
A diffraction grating actually.
By the way one thing making me wonder about the kinship between Lippmann photography and holography is the possibility of recording diffraction gratings in both cases. In my opinion the patent I had pointed to earlier, US 3,207,170 (http://a2.no-ip.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... 4&start=10), implicitly shows a method of making a reflection grating. The setup there claims to be according to Lippmann photography. I guess all depends on the light sources involved. If it's white light, it's Lippmann. If it's a single-frequency laser, it's holography. Between these two positions there seems to be a gray area though.
As I said earlier, the Lippman technique is operational, it allows the recording of the amplitude(s) of an object(s) by a sequence of operations that rely on the physical mechanism of standing waves. The bandwidth of the illuminant is necessary because the resulting image must elicit a photopic response. If the bandwidth is too narrow, there would be no photopic response.
No, you can actually record a Lippmann photograph of a laser illuminated scene (there's even some relatively recent patent on that possibility if I'm not misled). In practice it might make little sense though.
However, in a Denisyuk (or reflection) hologram, the recording has to be done with a coherent, narrow band source, because you're trying to capture phase information.
Yes, the question is where a "narrow band source" begins...
The retrieval of this phase information can be carried out using broadband sources, but it cannot be recorded with a broadband source (within limits, depending on the depth of the object and other factors).
For quite a while I've been wondering about the coherence length of those new supercontinuum lasers...
lobaz
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:08 am
Location: Pilsen, Czech Republic

Lunar Surface hologram

Post by lobaz »

Just to make the discussion even more intricate: there is a whole bunch of incoherent holographic techniques such as FINCH :)
OK, I know these apply to digital holography. What I wanted to say is that I would not be too strict in discriminating Denisyuk holography and Lippmann photography - I think both could be described using mutual coherence theory. After all, light is just light.
Dinesh

Lunar Surface hologram

Post by Dinesh »

I've been doing some reading on Lippman and I think I can see the source of the confusion.

In a Lippman system, there is an emulsion on one side of a substrate and a mirror on the other (In the original system, the mirror consisted of mercury poured into a receptacle). When exposing a Lippmn photograph, the object/scene is imaged onto the emulsion side of the system by means of a lens. It seems to be a box camera with a "Lippman sandwich" instead of a standard emulsion. In such a situation, the image that's being captured has no phase variation, being flat. There is no variation of phase in the object along the z axis for any particular colour, because there is no variation of the object itself in the z axis. Also, being projected as a flat image, all the light enters the system perpendicularly. This results in a set of planes that are parallel to each other and parallel to the front and back of the Lippman system. This is what you see in any description of the Lippman technique. However, each colour component of the scene/object creates its own set of planes. Therefore, let us say that the object being recorded has only red and green components. The components may not be broadband, but it would help since any coloured object seen in white light probably has a broad bandwidth, let's say the green is 520 - 540 nm and the red is 620 - 640 nm. So, now this object is projected onto the film front surface via the lens, allowing light to enter the system (almost) perpendicularly. This results in a set of planes that are separated by 265 +/- 5 nm and 315 +/- 5 nm. These planes are parallel to the front and back surfaces of the system and the variation of +/- 5 nm give the requisite bandwidth - assuming, of course, perfect recording, ie I'm ignoring scatter within the emulsion. These planes are assumed to be infinitely thin (I doubt they really would be since the standing wave has a sinusoidal variation, but the standard description of the technique does not infer any width to the planes.) So, now the system apparently needs to be seen in diffuse parallel light. Since light cannot be both diffuse and parallel at the same time, I'm assuming that "diffuse parallel" means a multi-component collimated source, such as sunlight. Let me therefore call a collimated, milti-spectral source, such as the sun, the "reconstruction source". In this situation, the reconstruction source would reconstruct the colour components of the scene - the red and green - due to constructive interference from the stacks, ie it's an interference stack much like the AR coating on glasses. Just as the green sheen on a pair of glasses with an AR coating is seen on the surface of the glasses, So, the image of the green and red objects are seen on the surface of the Lippman system. If you observe from a different angle than normal incidence, then the colours will shift because the planes will present a larger difference to the incoming light, Note however, the object is represented by a series of parallel planes,parallel to each other and parallel to the front and back surface of the system. No twisted, tilted or curved "planes". Any planes that are not parallel will not act as an interference stack, in general. There may be parallel components, but only if the curvature of the surfaces is low.

In a Denisyuk (or reflection) hologram, this is not the case. In a reflective holographic system, the light entering the system is not imaged onto the medium (usually) but the light entering the system is a complex wavefront. The shape of this wavefront carries with it the variation of phase in the object being recorded along all three axes. Of course if the x,y extensions are small wrt to the z extension, the phase variation along the z direction is predominantly recorded. The result of this is that the phase wavefront is captured relative to, and with respect to, the shape and form of the reference wavefront. That is, the reference wavefront may distort the capture of the actual phase wavefront of the object, but this distortion is reversed if the hologram is presented with the conjugate of the reference wavefront. In any case, what's recorded in the emulsion is a complex set of curved, twisted and tilted surfaces, whose separation depends not only on the recordoing wavelength but also on the direction of the reference beam. These surfaces represent the z axis phase variation of the object. The reconstruction is also accomplished by constructive interference, just as in the case of a Lippman, but now the interference stack is replaced by complex, curved surfaces, almost none of which are parallel to the surface of the emulsion. In order to create the "interference stack" effect, the reconstruction source must have the same curvature of the reference beam that created the curvature in the first place. Due to the complex nature of the cuvature of the surfaces, any beam with a different curvature, ie a different phase at the plate, would cause the "wrong interference stack effect".

If, however, you were to make a reflection hologram of two collimated, counter-propagating beams (or one beam and a mirror), then you'd have a set parallel planes just like a Lippman photograph.
Martin wrote:When did the term "phase" (and, linked to that, "coherence length") come up first? Was it connected to the invention of the laser?
No, the terms are considerably older. Descartes first came up with a concept of the structure of light, as opposed to the effects of light. Descartes first modeled light as a pressure on a universal, elastic material that pervaded the universe (the famous "Cartesian vortices"). Newton proposed that light consisted of particles (no, not photons, photons are completely different). Because of the authority of Newton, all wave theories of light were slapped down, including one by Euler. The wave theory was brought back by Young (of fringes fame) and further refined by Fresnel and Huygens. Etienne Malus discovered polarisation in 1808 from studying crystals. However, they still held to the Cartesian system, in which light was a pressure variation and therefore a longitudinal system, like sound. Finally, it dawned upon Young in 1825 that light may be a transverse wave. Then all the results achieved by Young, Fresnel and Malus made more sense. Once Maxwell synthesised electric and magnetic effects into an oscillating electro-magnetic system and showed that light was such a system, then all the power of the wave equation could be brought to bear on the properties of light. In particular, the Abbe theory of image formation in 1874 brought diffraction, phase relationships and coherence into imaging theory. The theory of the laser rests on a 1917 paper by Einstein, but by then, everything known today about diffractive wave optics was known.
Martin wrote:Yes, the question is where a "narrow band source" begins..
Well, in terms of imaging, I'd say "broad band" is the product of the light from the image multiplied by the scotopic function at any given wavelength. So, an extremely powerful source like the laser can be "narrow band" simply because the product of the laser power and the scotopic value at 633 (for a HeNe) is so large.
lobaz
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:08 am
Location: Pilsen, Czech Republic

Lunar Surface hologram

Post by lobaz »

Dinesh wrote:The wave theory was brought back by Young (of fringes fame) and further refined by Fresnel and Huygens.
Just a slight correction: Huygens and Newton published their theories of light approximately at the same time (Newton 1675, Huygens 1690). Young and Fresnel revived the theory one hundred years later (Young 1803, Fresnel 1816).
Martin

Lunar Surface hologram

Post by Martin »

lobaz wrote:Just to make the discussion even more intricate: there is a whole bunch of incoherent holographic techniques such as FINCH :)
OK, I know these apply to digital holography. What I wanted to say is that I would not be too strict in discriminating Denisyuk holography and Lippmann photography - I think both could be described using mutual coherence theory. After all, light is just light.
Well, I could easily live with that.
Never heard of FINCH before, thanks for mentioning it.
Martin

Lunar Surface hologram

Post by Martin »

Dinesh wrote:I've been doing some reading on Lippman and I think I can see the source of the confusion.
Thanks for taking the effort.
In a Lippman system, there is an emulsion on one side of a substrate and a mirror on the other (In the original system, the mirror consisted of mercury poured into a receptacle). When exposing a Lippmn photograph, the object/scene is imaged onto the emulsion side of the system by means of a lens. It seems to be a box camera with a "Lippman sandwich" instead of a standard emulsion.
Of course there's also the option of exploiting the reflection at the air-emulsion interface (no mercury, mirrors etc. involved).

In such a situation, the image that's being captured has no phase variation, being flat.
Yes, that makes sense.
These planes are assumed to be infinitely thin (I doubt they really would be since the standing wave has a sinusoidal variation, but the standard description of the technique does not infer any width to the planes.)
As an aside, both Neuhauss and Cajal took great effort measuring the size of these planes empirically.
So, now the system apparently needs to be seen in diffuse parallel light. Since light cannot be both diffuse and parallel at the same time, I'm assuming that "diffuse parallel" means a multi-component collimated source, such as sunlight.
"A good way to view a Lippmann photograph is by a small opening in a wall facing a brilliant white
sky. If the observer stands with his back to the opening and holds the picture at arm’s length, reflecting
the sky, the image appears at its best. There were special viewing devices, such as the dioptric and the
catoptric viewing apparatae, which facilitated the display of these beautiful colour photographs (Figure
2.10). The viewing difficulty inherent to Lippmann photographs resembles in some way today’s difficul-
ties in displaying and viewing holograms." (Bjelkhagen/Brotherton-Ratcliffe, p. 54)

If, however, you were to make a reflection hologram of two collimated, counter-propagating beams (or one beam and a mirror), then you'd have a set parallel planes just like a Lippman photograph.
That's interesting. So taking up Neske's setup and turning it into the recording of a reflection grating, what would it be, "Lippmann" or holography?
No, the terms are considerably older.
I actually meant the notion/name "phase". Do you know when it first came up?
Dinesh

Lunar Surface hologram

Post by Dinesh »

Martin wrote:Of course there's also the option of exploiting the reflection at the air-emulsion interface (no mercury, mirrors etc. involved).
You pretty much have to use a mirror to create standing waves because standing waves only form if the two waves from opposite directions are of equal magnitude. If they are not, there are no nodes, or, at least, the nodes don't go all the way to zero. So, if you relied just on Fresnel reflection (4% for glass at normal incidence) then the "fringe modulation" of the nodes and anti-nodes will be very low. This is not to say you cannot just use Fresnel reflection, it'll just create a very weak picture.
Martin wrote:So taking up Neske's setup and turning it into the recording of a reflection grating, what would it be, "Lippmann" or holography?
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Neske's setup. If you have a link, I can take a look.
Martin wrote:I actually meant the notion/name "phase". Do you know when it first came up?
It's one of those questions that's hard to pin down. There are discoveries in which you have to assume they must have had some idea of the notion of phase, but never mentioned it specifically. However, roughly, I'd trace it possibly back to Grimaldi who first reported diffraction in 1663. He observed a series of dark and light lines surrounding an opaque object in bright light. In 1678, Huygens tried to explain Grimaldi's observation with his principle, which stated that each point on a wavefront was the source of secondary waves which propagate at the same velocity and in the same direction as the original wave. The addition of these secondary waves causes a new wavefront. In order to add waves, you've got to believe that Huygens must have had a vague idea of phase. In 1802, Young produced interference fringes, thus proving the wave picture. However, in order to explain these interference lines he must have had an idea about phases. In 1818 Fresnel specifically used Huygen's Principle and Young's fringes to calculate the light pattern in diffraction, today known as Fresnel diffraction. In Fresnel diffraction, the term exp(ikr) shows up, showing that the concept of phase is now in mainstream optics. Maxwell published his electro-magnetic theory of light in 1860 and in 1882, Gustav Kirchoff puts Maxwell's theory and Fresnel's calculation together to create an electromagnetic theory of diffraction. In this theory, the Fresnel-Kirchoff integral, the phase is specifically entered as an exponential function, exp(ikr) and uses the word "phase" in it's modern meaning, as an electro-magnetic wave parameter.
Martin

Lunar Surface hologram

Post by Martin »

Thanks on your excursion on "phase" history, Dinesh.
Dinesh wrote:
Martin wrote:Of course there's also the option of exploiting the reflection at the air-emulsion interface (no mercury, mirrors etc. involved).
You pretty much have to use a mirror to create standing waves because standing waves only form if the two waves from opposite directions are of equal magnitude. If they are not, there are no nodes, or, at least, the nodes don't go all the way to zero. So, if you relied just on Fresnel reflection (4% for glass at normal incidence) then the "fringe modulation" of the nodes and anti-nodes will be very low. This is not to say you cannot just use Fresnel reflection, it'll just create a very weak picture.
That's what we'd expect from our experience with holography. Surprisingly however, you can record high quality Lippmann photos with the air-emulsion reflection only. See also this recent post: http://holoforum.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7548#p7548
Bjelkhagen gives an interesting explanation for this:

"The reason why it is possible to obtain a Lippmann photograph without mercury can be explained in the following way. One must study the difference between reflections at the mercury surface and at the gelatin–air interface (...). A node is located at the mercury reflector (an optically thicker medium than gelatin), which is in contact with the gelatin surface. The phase shift there is π. On the contrary, an antinode is located at the gelatin-air surface when the reflection is obtained from a gelatin–­air interface (an optically thinner medium than gelatin); in this case, because no phase shift occurs, a silver layer will be created at the emulsion surface after development. In the case of a mercury-gelatin interface, the first silver layer will be created at a distance from the interface of λ/4 inside the gelatin emulsion, whereas in the gelatin-air case, the second silver layer will be λ/4 closer to the gelatin-air interface surface compared with the same layer in the mercury-gelatin case. Because the coherence length of ordinary light is extremely short, this difference in distance from the gelatin-reflector surfaceis very important. The slightly increased modulation (caused by a higher degree of coherence) in the gelatin–air reflector case can somewhat compensate for the weaker reflection obtained." (Bjelkhagen/Brotherton-Ratcliffe, Ultra-realistic Imaging, p.61)


Rereading the chapter on Lippmann photography of the above book, I run into the following:

"The fundamental difference between a Lippmann photograph and a Denisyuk reflection hologram is that in the Lippmann case, there is no phase recording involved; the recorded inter-ference structure is a result of the phase-locking of the light by the reflecting mirror. In holography, the
phase information is actually recorded, being encoded as an interference pattern created between the light reflected from the object and a coherent reference beam. To some extent, a Lippmann photograph can be regarded as a reflection image-plane hologram recorded with light of very short temporal coherence. The reference wave is a diffuse complex wave front (the mirror image of the exit pupil of the recording lens)." (p. 57)
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Neske's setup. If you have a link, I can take a look.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3107170.pdf
or: https://encrypted.google.com/patents/US3107170
Dinesh

Lunar Surface hologram

Post by Dinesh »

Martin wrote:The reason why it is possible to obtain a Lippmann photograph without mercury can be explained in the following way. One must study the difference between reflections at the mercury surface and at the gelatin–air interface (...). A node is located at the mercury reflector (an optically thicker medium than gelatin), which is in contact with the gelatin surface. The phase shift there is π. On the contrary, an antinode is located at the gelatin-air surface when the reflection is obtained from a gelatin–­air interface (an optically thinner medium than gelatin); in this case, because no phase shift occurs, a silver layer will be created at the emulsion surface after development. In the case of a mercury-gelatin interface, the first silver layer will be created at a distance from the interface of λ/4 inside the gelatin emulsion, whereas in the gelatin-air case, the second silver layer will be λ/4 closer to the gelatin-air interface surface compared with the same layer in the mercury-gelatin case. Because the coherence length of ordinary light is extremely short, this difference in distance from the gelatin-reflector surfaceis very important. The slightly increased modulation (caused by a higher degree of coherence) in the gelatin–air reflector case can somewhat compensate for the weaker reflection obtained." (Bjelkhagen/Brotherton-Ratcliffe, Ultra-realistic Imaging, p.61)
I'm not sure what the geometry is here. There seems to be a gelatin-mercury interface and a gelatin air interface. However, there is no gelatin-substrate interface. It's as if a layer of gelatin was all that stood between the mercury and air, which I find difficult to see. The gelatin mast have very stiff. I'm also not sure why there is no phase shift at the air gelatin interface, assuming that the light is coming into the system from air, hits the gelatin first (no substrate) and then hits the mercury. The Fresnel equations give that, for normal incidence (as is the case here), the reflected beam intensity as a ratio of the incident beam intensity:

E(reflected)/E(incident) = {n(air) - n(gelatin)}/{n(air) + n(gelatin).

If n(gelatin) > n(air), then E(reflected)/E(incident) is negative, which implies a shift of pi at the air gelatin interface. Even so, if the index of gelatin is about 1.3, then'

|E(reflected)/E(incident)! = 0.3/2.3 ~ 0.1304

Or, about 13%. [edit: the amplitude of the reflected wave is 13%, therefore the intensity of the reflected wave is ~1.7%] Therefore there would be a fairly weak anti-node, compared to the node. Also, the nodes would not go to zero, since there is such a large difference between the strengths of the two counter-propagating beams.

However, if there was a glass-gelatin interface, and if the index of glass were greater than that of gelatin, then there would be no phase shift and so an anti-node at this interface.
Martin wrote:"The fundamental difference between a Lippmann photograph and a Denisyuk reflection hologram is that in the Lippmann case, there is no phase recording involved; the recorded inter-ference structure is a result of the phase-locking of the light by the reflecting mirror. In holography, the
phase information is actually recorded, being encoded as an interference pattern created between the light reflected from the object and a coherent reference beam. To some extent, a Lippmann photograph can be regarded as a reflection image-plane hologram recorded with light of very short temporal coherence. The reference wave is a diffuse complex wave front (the mirror image of the exit pupil of the recording lens)." (p. 57)
Yes, as I said. However, I would not call the reference wave a mirror image of the exit pupil, since the exit pupil is the final aperture of the system. The exit pupil is an image of the entrance pupil as the various rays pass through the system.
Martin wrote: I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Neske's setup. If you have a link, I can take a look.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3107170.pdf
or: https://encrypted.google.com/patents/US3107170
Yes, I would call this more a Lippman than a Denisyuk hologram. The bandwidth would be extremely narrow, depending on the medium used and the process for magnification of the latent image (eg a uv source for polymers). I'm also not sure how he gets colours, since the plane separation is half lambda of the recording wavelength. On possible way may be to have a mask of some sort on one leg, through which an rgb is sent.
Martin

Lunar Surface hologram

Post by Martin »

Dinesh wrote:I'm not sure what the geometry is here. There seems to be a gelatin-mercury interface and a gelatin air interface. However, there is no gelatin-substrate interface. It's as if a layer of gelatin was all that stood between the mercury and air, which I find difficult to see. The gelatin mast have very stiff. I'm also not sure why there is no phase shift at the air gelatin interface, assuming that the light is coming into the system from air, hits the gelatin first (no substrate) and then hits the mercury.
No, there's no mercury layer involved here whatsoever. It's basically the same standard Lippmann geometry but instead of a mercury/mirror layer there's only the gelatin air interface to provide the necessary reflection.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3107170.pdf
or: https://encrypted.google.com/patents/US3107170
Yes, I would call this more a Lippman than a Denisyuk hologram. The bandwidth would be extremely narrow,
I would have said, with white light the bandwidth becomes extremely large...
depending on the medium used and the process for magnification of the latent image (eg a uv source for polymers). I'm also not sure how he gets colours, since the plane separation is half lambda of the recording wavelength.
The practical side of the setup is quite a different ball game. I don't see how to reach equal path lengths with a broadband ("white") light source. The requirements on precision would be far too stringent in my opinion.

However, if the light source becomes narrow, things will change dramatically. If the setup implied the use of a single-frequency laser, the whole thing would be changed into a device of making reflection gratings holographically.
In that respect I think this patent isn't very far from Denisyuk.
Post Reply