Thoughts on Holography Failures...

[Danny Bee]

H i Jeffrey Weil
my point here is not to trash you, but hoping you can see the big picture

You have no idea of what experience I have in holography, you don't know me at all, you've never seen a piece of my work that you knew was mine, of the dozens of symposiums I've been we've never met, but your going to teach me about the big picture. If that's the case you must feel like you know more than everyone that's ever worked in embossed holography.

All I know about you is your a web designer asking me to accept being insulted on a forum geared towards hobbyists so I can learn about the big picture of holography. That's crazy. Even if every person here is a better holographer that I am, that's still crazy. No one here should be dumped on.

Your three points make no sense. I'm not talking about any of that.

I'll list it like you do so you can get what I'm saying

1-It's wrong to s*** on people so harshly on a forum like this. We should respect each other, lawn jockey salesman, Iphone fart app salesman,etc.... The list seems to get longer and longer each time I visit this site. I'm not only talking about this thread. I've read many derogatory remarks about what I do here. There are nicer ways of making all the same points. And these remarks were not directed at me, but to all embossed holographers.

2-chasing away professional holographers regardless of their media does not help this forum with it's intended goal of sharing information. Almost all of us started out doing silver or dcg.

What about that can't you understand?

as long as you focus on your self and your hurt, you will never see the big picture because it about you... at that moment in time....and that has lead to the major split in holography ...
the disconnects....the inter circle and lower lings out cast... this really need to stop if we are to pass on holography to the next generation, because the inter circle will die ... but its good that some of the secret knowledge has leaked out or be found out by many of us diligent seeker...people like dinesh , dave batten, and many on this forum...amen
What about that can't you understand

[Jeffrey Weil]

this really need to stop if we are to pass on holography to the next generation, because the inter circle will die

And your going to accomplish this by insulting professionals?

This isn't about me, I wasn't mentioned by name. This is about the forum. Do you want pros to come here and post? If so, stop insulting them.

I'm done with the, its a silly "my holography is better than your holography" argument.

[Danny Bee]

this really need to stop if we are to pass on holography to the next generation, because the inter circle will die

And your going to accomplish this by insulting professionals?

This isn't about me, I wasn't mentioned by name. This is about the forum. Do you want pros to come here and post? If so, stop insulting them.

I'm done with the, its a silly "my holography is better than your holography" argument.

Jeff be real I have not insult you! its up to you if you want to share... if you dont its not us who lose but you!

[Colin Kaminski]

Whats everyone else's opinion on this? I've been making holograms for decades day in and day out. All professional real jobs. Do I have anything to offer on this board, or should I go away in shame because I do the unspeakable? I make holograms that are not art in some peoples eyes on this board. And if so, should all the other holographers that are not considered artists by this forum leave too?

I think holography is much more than a form of art. Danny is looking at a very narrow picture that is the focus of his attempt to revive holography. Bob is quite right, holography is a success. That is because of the tireless work of the "real" holographers that are producing solutions to problems on a daily basis.

I am an amateur holographer that understands the setups and equations. I do not pretend to understand how to make a living with this fun stuff. Jeffery does. Danny you would be wise to listen to Jeffery's sage advice. Especially now that you are working as a teacher.

[Tom B.]

Once again, I apologize for my very poorly chosen "bad" examples which had nothing at all to do with holography or you . If I generally deplore holokitsch, it has nothing to do with disrespect for the craftsmen that created it (unless the work was poorly done). It is in the nature of things for dilettantes such as myself to disparage work that aims too low, in appealing to the crasser appetites of infantile consumers; or that aims too high, in being stupendously boring artsy-fartsy fluff (aimed at a different class of infantile consumer). And so I express myself, though maybe a little too cautiously about respected art holographers

But this is not primarily a forum for art holography or professional holography - it's mostly attended by amateurs, though a few established artsy types and pros occasionally attend. According to my reading of Colin's infinitely wise guidance, all are welcome to share techniques and air their (holographically relevant) prejudices within the bounds of civilized discourse, i.e. no personal attacks etc. Nor is the discussion necessarily just technical, since a camera without an interesting subject is just a chunk of optics. Some discussion of content should take place, even if it just reveals the frivolous poverty of our imaginations.

Anyway, if you have an online portfolio or gallery of stuff that you have done that you are proud of, I would be honored to check it out. Believe it or not, I deeply respect the true grit needed to survive as a professional holographer through the past decades and wish you the best.

[Jeffrey]

Thoughts on Holography Failures...
The original title for this thread was invented by a disgruntled person complaining that a professional holographer had done some underhanded business, and the complainer lost a lot of money. Their deal was a failure. The post was deleted as it was pure libel and unsubstantiated, but a very credible story reminiscent of many such unprintable stories among my own experiences over 30 years.
The original point I responded to concerned how certain factors, such as business personality, (as well as illumination difficulties and production problems), have slowed the advancement that we have all dreamed our field deserves.
My reply, the first post here, lightly addressed the long history of holographers as amateur businessmen being the culprits in many disasters which have not helped holography advance. Even the serious businessmen have left a legacy of patent wars which bankrupted everyone involved. Most of the minor events have gone undocumented, as they are unflattering to living people, and must remain that way. Many well-known names are not being named here. This thread was not about being disgruntled, it was a muzzled attempt to address business failures caused by plain old bad business, and hopefully others can learn to behave better. A bad deal means no more deals with that rare customer, or their friends, forever. I love learning from other people's mistakes. But it's not really possible to describe those horror stories without someone, perhaps the actual culprits, objecting wildly. So we remain civil online. Some of us.
25 years ago I witnessed a celebrated holographer kick another accomplished holographer out of an art exhibit because their hologram was embossed. "Embossed holograms are not art" was the stated excuse. It was a large format, multi-color, animated, unique art image in a gold Florentine frame. That atrocity of judgement has already been done, and obviously art can be made out of anything. And Hello Kittys can be made out of anything. After spending a month with an artist making something glorious that hangs on a real museum wall, my sister asks if I put the rainbow on her box of toothpaste - should I get mad at her? Obviously not...
The various directions this forum has proceeded (wandered) since, viz. holographic art is a failure, holography is a failure, you are trashing my art, making money proves I'm right.... come one people, grow up. Our field is spectacular, unique, still in it's incredible undiscovered infancy, and no it's not mainstream, or we would be just like 50 million photographers talking about lighting and lenses and my camera is better than yours. Accusing or putting down colleagues, or worse, feeling alone and misunderstood, is not how a working industry is formed, or even a cooperative group. Appreciating your colleague's work, then gloriously outdoing it, and explaining how you did it, is how it all grows. Like real science.
There are many great artists and fine business people in holography, and they shouldn't feel that I am trashing the entirety as a bunch of hoodlums and bad artists. I was addressing the underbelly that is not in the holography books, and IS part of the "why is holography a failure" topic that seems so inflammatory and unsolved. Many people who tried to help support holography with their bucks will never do so again because a few could not complete an honest deal. This is still true, which is why this topic started.

[Tom B.]

Our field is spectacular, unique, still in it's incredible undiscovered infancy, and no it's not mainstream, or we would be just like 50 million photographers talking about lighting and lenses and my camera is better than yours. Accusing or putting down colleagues, or worse, feeling alone and misunderstood, is not how a working industry is formed, or even a cooperative group. Appreciating your colleague's work, then gloriously outdoing it, and explaining how you did it, is how it all grows. Like real science.

Right on, brother!

For those unfamiliar with the idiom, it may loosely be translated as "I strongly agree with the speaker".

[BobH]

I'll drink to that!

[Tom B.]

I'll drink to that!

Indeed. This is me at the keyboard on a few but still too many nights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28vm1lAVOpg

(Dylan Moran playing Bernard Black, an Irish bookseller and sometimes bad writer composing a venomous diatribe in response to a publisher's rejection letter). The Black Books series is absolutely hilarious if you like talky British comedy with a bit of wit behind it.

[Colin Kaminski]

The original title for this thread was invented by a disgruntled person complaining that a professional holographer had done some underhanded business, and the complainer lost a lot of money.

I must admit I deleted the original post to this thread. I have no idea about the details of the complaint but it was not the proper place to address this person's concerns. However I found Jeffery's reply eloquent and worthy as a topic so I made a title and hung him on display. I have to thank Jeffery for being a good sport and following along.