Osram to launch new blue laser diode (50mW @450nm)

Colin Kaminski · Post by **Colin Kaminski** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:57 am

Hi Jeffery,

The fact that it now takes a 9 layer 2D-3D hologram to be secure is what I am talking about. Do you think you could make a convincing copy of the Visa logo? I do.

When a person can make a handful of holograms will be like when the color photocopier first showed on the scene and people were able to pass photocopied money on plain paper.

It is an arms race and it sounds like you are way ahead. However there is no absolute security in anything. Look at the history of locksmithing for example.

Jeffrey Weil · Post by **Jeffrey Weil** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:40 pm

Colin Kaminski wrote:Hi Jeffery,

The fact that it now takes a 9 layer 2D-3D hologram to be secure is what I am talking about. Do you think you could make a convincing copy of the Visa logo? I do.

Actually the 9 layer job was a kids trading card. Most of the security jobs I do are much less complicated.

No, I could not reshoot the visa dove from scratch and have it pass. That is a model. Even getting a new model made wouldn't work. It would look different. Sure, the causal observer will not notice but anyone who really cares if its real will see the difference right away. Which makes it no different from other anti counterfeiting technologies in that sense.

It is an arms race and it sounds like you are way ahead. However there is no absolute security in anything. Look at the history of locksmithing for example.

Exactly, nothing will ever be counterfeit proof. Its a system. Like In Poland the Gov had the dist system. The mob was much slower. I just made a new pretty standard 2d-3d every 3 months. The production was ongoing so that was not a problem. Even if the Russian Mob could counterfeit it perfectly by the time they got it to all the locations there was a new image being used. Great security with a standard holo.

Since nothing is counterfeit proof seeing a counterfeit hologram does not regulate it to be a pretense. Nothing to this day can really do what it can do as far as protection, cost, speed, etc....

The US banknote lasted many many years without any major redesign for protection and it worked great. Until Iran bought the real printing equipment from the US Treasury and then laser printers and color copiers. Then and only then did it require a new look. When making holograms is as easy and accessable as a color copy machine thats when it has lost its security value.

A counterfeit hologram today is like the old money counterfeits that used a xerox machine with a single color of toner or a single color of ink on a small offset press. A little gets into the system but It'll only pass if you don't really look at all and it has little effect on the total money supply.

Jeffrey Weil
NorthBeach Holography Inc.

Colin Kaminski · Post by **Colin Kaminski** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:28 pm

For the Visa logo I would use the hologram itself as the model.

I think we agree on the problem. I am more pessimistic than you. However you have the experience in the industry, I just watch from the sidelines.

I am glad there is still good work in mastering mylar holograms. Mastering is the fun side of holography.

Jeffrey Weil · Post by **Jeffrey Weil** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:23 pm

Colin Kaminski wrote:For the Visa logo I would use the hologram itself as the model.

I think we agree on the problem. I am more pessimistic than you. However you have the experience in the industry, I just watch from the sidelines.

Hey Colin,

Thanks for fixing my post.

I just checked, all my visa's have at least a little bit if not a lot more of the actual model messed up by the embossed numbers. Not holo embossing, the raised macro credit card numbers. So you couldn't use those as models. I bet there are better ones though.

Try to copy one of yours. A casual viewer will let is pass but even a slight closer look will show differences. The biggest being noise. Theres a few reasons that it will look a little different. And security is not about the hologram alone. There's plenty of other security devices in the card too. Each and every one can be copied somehow. But to do them all well is what its all about. Throw everything at them your budget can handle.

These arguments have been around for 25 years and yet the holos are still being used by many clients. That in itself says something. Visa is a unique job and its not really a good example to use for this discussion. As you stated earlier nothing will be totally secure, ever, so its really about how hard it is vs the money that can be stolen.

The last security job I did is a better thing to use as an example as its not worth 100's of millions to the counterfeiters. I did a small hologram for a pipe fitting company who's pipes have been counterfeited in China and they want their distributors to be able to tell the difference. Perfect use of a holo. Such a small product and the only people that have to interrogate the holo (look at it close and tell if its real) are the distributors. Not millions of people in the general public.

For the big jobs like visa/mc its about the system and just throwing a lot at them. How many people can make a hologram? Pretty much no one compared to how many can make a mag stripe or print uv ink. But those are successful counter measures used in visa too.

For jobs too small to put big money into counterfeiting a holo works great. For a big job like visa/mc thats worth major bucks to organized crime its a part of a security system and it works great.

Jeff Weil
NorthBeach Holography Inc.

Colin Kaminski · Post by **Colin Kaminski** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:19 am

I have intended to copy a mylar hologram to play with it. It never comes up on the priority list in the lab though. It would be fun tom play with mastering them. I have seen some pretty complicated setups and I think I would have fun. A pipe manufacturer has very little to worry about. Microsoft does.

The other security feature of a hologram is every table setup is slightly different. This makes tracing a single hologram to a single lab posible. Like a fingerprint. I would love to sit in on a mastering session with you one day. I have never made it to Florida though.

Jeffrey Weil · Post by **Jeffrey Weil** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:05 am

Colin Kaminski wrote:I have intended to copy a mylar hologram to play with it. It never comes up on the priority list in the lab though. It would be fun tom play with mastering them. I have seen some pretty complicated setups and I think I would have fun. A pipe manufacturer has very little to worry about. Microsoft does.

The other security feature of a hologram is every table setup is slightly different. This makes tracing a single hologram to a single lab posible. Like a fingerprint. I would love to sit in on a mastering session with you one day. I have never made it to Florida though.

Even the pipe guy has problems. A holo run is not cheap. They wouldn't do it if not needed. All kinds of stuff you would never really think about are counterfeited.

Good point on the table differences. I can't do it anymore but a while ago I tell a few of the holographers images. They do look different. I know mine do. The angles and color spread are different.

Different embossers have an effect on the image too, not nearly as much as the mastering of course but some. The substrates you emboss into are also a big deal. Some of them are security devices on their own!

Jeff Weil
NorthBeach Holography Inc.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:31 pm

Is it theoretically possible to fully capture a multiplane hologram in a single plane one? (ie. with the same response to every combination of viewing and lighting orientation.)

Colin Kaminski · Post by **Colin Kaminski** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:15 pm

I can't see how in a single exposure you could copy an object that needed multiple reference beams. Like a dot matrix hologram with rotating reference beams.