The Beginning...

This is a forum exploring Lippmann photography.
Colin Kaminski

The Beginning...

Post by Colin Kaminski »

Martin wrote:
Colin Kaminski wrote:Martin,

I will make web space available for you to store the papers. If you can make them digital for me you and ftp them in or you can email them to me and I will ftp them in. I will need a name and a description for each file.

Cheers!
OK, Colin. We have to find out how to make that "transaction". The main part of my Lippmann papers/books is larger than 100 MB. Guess that's a bit too large. I have to figure out how to compress those files...


No problem, Can you FTP? I use ws_ftp le. I can give you the passwords for a site and have you upload them. Or you can mail me a CD.



I have a very large colection of holography pdfs that I am trying to make public. Perhaps I can do it at the same time.
Martin

The Beginning...

Post by Martin »

Colin Kaminski wrote:No problem, Can you FTP? I use ws_ftp le. I can give you the passwords for a site and have you upload them. Or you can mail me a CD.


I have no FTP program but maybe I can do that under Linux...
Martin

The Beginning...

Post by Martin »

Ed Wesly wrote:There is a good reason why most everybody who has responded has never seen a Lippmann photo (and why they never caught on); they are hard to view.
I agree. Maybe that's been the decisive reason for the almost complete extinction of the majority of Lippmann photos made between 1891 – 1910. Not only were they hard to view but hard to recognize as images (that's to say, to distinguish them from “failed” photos).
As for places to see Lippmann photos, I hope Bill A. will elaborate on that...
Another Lippmann that I saw was done by Nick Phillips. It was done sometime in the '80's on Agfa film, and was quite bright. But his trick was that although it was a Lippmann technique, it was monochromatic!
I never saw his photos but read the two papers by Phillips about that experience. Incidentally, the most striking thing he mentioned there was the extremely high DE when making reflection hologram contact copies by using a sodium vapor lamp.
Because he was using film, not plates, he went with a Sodium vapor lamp to illuminate what I seem to remember was a frieze of horses, because the film has a 2 micron protective overcoat on top of the emulsion. This is more than the coherence length of white light subjects, so he was forced to shoot monochromatically to get better coherence! This will also be a problem for members here trying to make the Lippmanns on the cheap!
Yes, that seems a big problem. And making Lippmanns certainly remains a challenge. At least the situation among the recording materials has changed over the last years. PFG-03c, Ultimate Lippmann, homemade emulsions, photopolymers have become available meanwhile.
Still there is little known about that process. Making the old Lippmann literature generally available might hopefully contribute to more success in that area.
I've seen some of the current work by Hans, and although I've never made one myself, I would have to say that the mercury mirror is necessary for the ultimate in brightness. What Nick did for the retroreflector was index match a piece of metalized mylar to the film, which might be a good idea for those with Mercury phobia. It really wasn't index matching, he used a rapid evaporating solvent to get the pieces together, and then once it evaporated the film and reflector were in the most intimate of contact.


I think there are good reasons to have a mercury phobia. I for myself consider that stuff as an absolute must-not (this also applies to using mercuric intensification). Moreover, there are alternatives.
Colin Kaminski

The Beginning...

Post by Colin Kaminski »

Martin wrote:I think there are good reasons to have a mercury phobia. I for myself consider that stuff as an absolute must-not (this also applies to using mercuric intensification). Moreover, there are alternatives.


Agreed!



Bill Ashuler does not use mercury for his process. I hope he will elaborate when he finds out about this forum.
Sogokon'A

The Beginning...

Post by Sogokon'A »

I greet all participants in this forum! I greet the creation of separate forum on the Lippmann photography. I regret, that has late found out it.



Me the question why Lippmann or its followers have not opened holography for a long time interested? In fact they were so close, it is literally in 100 micrometers. Really no one of them did complete this "useful error" as the entry of the foreign body between the surface of mercury and the photosensitive layer? Really it fell not one grain of sand, not one air bubble, not one hair, not one bread crumb of the capable of moving aside the surface of mercury! But it is fingerprint on the opposite side of plate they must somewhere remain. For obtaining the hologram of length coherence was sufficient. I.F.Usagin recorded the emission spectra of vapors of metals. In this case the length of coherence was sufficient, in order to imprint even elements of fastening. If such occurred, the Lippmann, as the person "charged" on dimensions, could not pass past this phenomenon (it indeed it created even and integral photography!).



In searches of this of "a useful mistake» I per 1986 have gone to Moscow in the Polytechnic Museum. There with great difficulty it was possible to find four samples: two Neuhaus’s photographs and two – Usagin’s pictures. Since so few people saw the real Lippmann’s photographs, that I will stop at their description in more detail.

The first sample this is the photograph of the continuous spectrum of incandescent lamp. Photograph of Neuhaus with the size of 4,5x6 sm, glued by black integumentary glass. On a forward surface sufficiently massive prism with a corner of 20-30 degrees is pasted. Its designation - to remove parasitic reflection from the surface of glass and to coordinate observation conditions with record conditions. When I examined this photograph, that was experienced a feeling of terrible realism and psychological discomfort: I see ideally real spectrum, but instrument, which this realism only and can ensure - I do not see!



The second photograph of Neuhaus also shakes imagination. It is a landscape. In my opinion, subject is selected super-brilliantly! I have estimated it as the photographer and as holographer, have given all an explanation. The park or a garden with a small building (type of a cottage) is presented. Entrance glass door is located in the depth of tambour. At shooting on a film or the digital device, this door would be in the field of a deep shadow, and to consider its details it would be possible only time exposure a picture, i.e. by loss of other information. On Lippmann’s picture all details of a door are perfectly presented, and all looks is surprisingly realistic. Confuses a little the color of sky, but this sky now above each city with the population is more than million. Thus the dynamic range (or the photographic width) of Lippmann image is compared only with the holographic image. Comparison with others - is inappropriate.



The third and the fourth - these are the trial photographs of Usagin. Size of the plates of 9x12sm. The strip of a continuous spectrum in length approximately 10sm with the noticeable dip in green region is presented. Plates are not protected. Diffraction effectiveness is low (not more than 20%). But exterior view amazing - this is the normally exposed and normally developed plate PFG-03, only thickness of glass of 2mm and solid age!

The searches for the effect of "bread crumb" by success did not crown. Irreproachable quality of the adjoining of mercury to the emulsion!



Ed Wesly
What also was in the box of goodies were some sensitizing dye exposure tests. What they looked like were what we would call conformal mirrors; single beam reflection holograms of a reflector pressed against the plate. Not having the paper in front of me, I forget if he wrote that they were exposed in a camera, or if they were exposed directly to a filtered mercury lamp. In any case, he unknowingly made some holograms!


You really saw 3D image?



Aleksandr
Martin

The Beginning...

Post by Martin »

Sogokon'A wrote:I greet all participants in this forum! I greet the creation of separate forum on the Lippmann photography. I regret, that has late found out it.

Me the question why Lippmann or its followers have not opened holography for a long time interested? In fact they were so close, it is literally in 100 micrometers. Really no one of them did complete this "useful error" as the entry of the foreign body between the surface of mercury and the photosensitive layer? Really it fell not one grain of sand, not one air bubble, not one hair, not one bread crumb of the capable of moving aside the surface of mercury! But it is fingerprint on the opposite side of plate they must somewhere remain. For obtaining the hologram of length coherence was sufficient. I.F.Usagin recorded the emission spectra of vapors of metals. In this case the length of coherence was sufficient, in order to imprint even elements of fastening. If such occurred, the Lippmann, as the person "charged" on dimensions, could not pass past this phenomenon (it indeed it created even and integral photography!).

In searches of this of "a useful mistake» I per 1986 have gone to Moscow in the Polytechnic Museum. There with great difficulty it was possible to find four samples: two Neuhaus’s photographs and two – Usagin’s pictures. Since so few people saw the real Lippmann’s photographs, that I will stop at their description in more detail.
The first sample this is the photograph of the continuous spectrum of incandescent lamp. Photograph of Neuhaus with the size of 4,5x6 sm, glued by black integumentary glass. On a forward surface sufficiently massive prism with a corner of 20-30 degrees is pasted. Its designation - to remove parasitic reflection from the surface of glass and to coordinate observation conditions with record conditions. When I examined this photograph, that was experienced a feeling of terrible realism and psychological discomfort: I see ideally real spectrum, but instrument, which this realism only and can ensure - I do not see!

The second photograph of Neuhaus also shakes imagination. It is a landscape. In my opinion, subject is selected super-brilliantly! I have estimated it as the photographer and as holographer, have given all an explanation. The park or a garden with a small building (type of a cottage) is presented. Entrance glass door is located in the depth of tambour. At shooting on a film or the digital device, this door would be in the field of a deep shadow, and to consider its details it would be possible only time exposure a picture, i.e. by loss of other information. On Lippmann’s picture all details of a door are perfectly presented, and all looks is surprisingly realistic. Confuses a little the color of sky, but this sky now above each city with the population is more than million. Thus the dynamic range (or the photographic width) of Lippmann image is compared only with the holographic image. Comparison with others - is inappropriate.

The third and the fourth - these are the trial photographs of Usagin. Size of the plates of 9x12sm. The strip of a continuous spectrum in length approximately 10sm with the noticeable dip in green region is presented. Plates are not protected. Diffraction effectiveness is low (not more than 20%). But exterior view amazing - this is the normally exposed and normally developed plate PFG-03, only thickness of glass of 2mm and solid age!
The searches for the effect of "bread crumb" by success did not crown. Irreproachable quality of the adjoining of mercury to the emulsion!

Ed Wesly
What also was in the box of goodies were some sensitizing dye exposure tests. What they looked like were what we would call conformal mirrors; single beam reflection holograms of a reflector pressed against the plate. Not having the paper in front of me, I forget if he wrote that they were exposed in a camera, or if they were exposed directly to a filtered mercury lamp. In any case, he unknowingly made some holograms!
You really saw 3D image?

Aleksandr


Interesting.

Usagin was the Russian Lippmann practitioner mentioned on http://www.holography.ru some time ago?
Sogokon'A

The Beginning...

Post by Sogokon'A »

Martin wrote
Usagin was the Russian Lippmann practitioner mentioned on http://www.holography.ru some time ago?


It is very pleasant, that you examine Russian forums. Yes, this I informed participants in the forum about the rare paper of Usagin, by published in 1903 in the journal "Proceedings of the Russian society of the amateurs of photograph". It is called "Practical procedures of photographing using Lippman's method, adapted for obtaining the photographs of the spectra of solid and gaseous substances". I think, that this paper is worthy that, in order to enter into the complete works on the Lippmann’s photography, created on this site. In the format .doc it size 299 Kb.



If there are no difficulties with the Russian language, can look here http://bsfp.media-security.ru/p2004/lippman.htm



Aleksandr
Sergio

The Beginning...

Post by Sergio »

Sogokon'A wrote:Martin wrote
Usagin was the Russian Lippmann practitioner mentioned on http://www.holography.ru some time ago?
It is very pleasant, that you examine Russian forums. Yes, this I informed participants in the forum about the rare paper of Usagin, by published in 1903 in the journal "Proceedings of the Russian society of the amateurs of photograph". It is called "Practical procedures of photographing using Lippman's method, adapted for obtaining the photographs of the spectra of solid and gaseous substances". I think, that this paper is worthy that, in order to enter into the complete works on the Lippmann’s photography, created on this site. In the format .doc it size 299 Kb.

If there are no difficulties with the Russian language, can look here http://bsfp.media-security.ru/p2004/lippman.htm

Aleksandr




Any chance to get it in English? I'm still learning russian at initial stages :D



By the way I found some references to the Мир publishers, what happen to they? They actually publish books?
Colin Kaminski

The Beginning...

Post by Colin Kaminski »

Here is a start. Perhaps a Bi-Lingulal reader will correct the mistakes...







http://www.holographyforum.org/HoloWiki ... in_Article
Martin

The Beginning...

Post by Martin »

Sogokon'A wrote:Yes, this I informed participants in the forum about the rare paper of Usagin, by published in 1903 in the journal "Proceedings of the Russian society of the amateurs of photograph". It is called "Practical procedures of photographing using Lippman's method, adapted for obtaining the photographs of the spectra of solid and gaseous substances". I think, that this paper is worthy that, in order to enter into the complete works on the Lippmann’s photography, created on this site. In the format .doc it size 299 Kb.


Yes, I agree. It would be highly interesting to display Usagin's paper on this site here. That paper obviously has gone completely undetected by the recent Lippmann literature. Incidentally, it might indicate that Lippmann photography has been practiced much more widely than previously expected. Moreover, since that paper may be available in a doc file, it might be "translated" relatively easily...
Locked