About copying Lippmann photography

[Martin]

1. Lippmann supposed a possibility of copying on silver halide. But did not duplicate.
2. He did copies on the dichromate material; we shall name it conditionally DCG.
3. From the text unclear what exactly it duplicated, that has been represented on the original and on a copy. It is the main difficulty. If there is in the text a mention of it that essentially will help.
My assumptions. The unique experiment supported by common sense, is registration of a linear spectrum on DCG and it’s copying on DCG. Then really obtained negative will be “brilliant”.

Regarding #3, yes, you're right, it remains unclear what kind of photos Lippmann has taken on dichromated recording materials.

He seems to have done “regular” Lippmann photographs on dichromated materials, cellulose or gelatin (in a footnote he explicitly mentions dichromated gelatin also). It's not clear from this text whether he really did copy Lippmann photographs (the way you mentioned) though.

[Sogokon'A]

sergio wrote:

As a film cover we can also laminate a mirror like plastic film (also a high optical quality) with no problem forming a stable Lippmann photopolymer film, the mirror film can be removed after exposure. The question is the thickness of the protective cover between aluminium and photopolymer, that is around 0.8nm, so a bare film foil is necessary..

Perhaps, at all to refuse a mirror? I have refused use of the mirror in March, 1984.

But I did not give to it special value, having mentioned about it in article «Processing of images with application Lippmann’s photography on dichromated gelatin plate» (Magazine of a scientific and applied photo and cinematography 1990). In this case it is used Frenel’s reflection from border of section of gelatin-air. In figure distribution of intensity of a standing wave in an absorbing layer (DCG or photopolymer) is shown. http://narod.yandex.ru/filemanager/sp.x ... p1_005.jpg

I used a mirror only in the first experiments. Images, represented on the forum, it is also obtained without the mirror.

[Sogokon'A]

Martin wrote:

He seems to have done “regular” Lippmann photographs on dichromated materials, cellulose or gelatin (in a footnote he explicitly mentions dichromated gelatin also).

It is interesting, whether pictures made Lippmann on dichromated materials were kept in museums?

[Sogokon'A]

Excuse, here the correct link http://syneko.narod.ru/lip1_005.jpg

[Martin]

Perhaps, at all to refuse a mirror? I have refused use of the mirror in March, 1984.
But I did not give to it special value, having mentioned about it in article «Processing of images with application Lippmann’s photography on dichromated gelatin plate» (Magazine of a scientific and applied photo and cinematography 1990). In this case it is used Frenel’s reflection from border of section of gelatin-air. In figure distribution of intensity of a standing wave in an absorbing layer (DCG or photopolymer) is shown. http://narod.yandex.ru/filemanager/sp.x ... p1_005.jpg
I used a mirror only in the first experiments. Images, represented on the forum, it is also obtained without the mirror.

Due to the oxygen problem radical photopolymerization may be difficult to carry out on an open layer. That's why we thought “sandwiching the polymer between a transparent PET film and an aluminized PET (mirror) sheet would be more efficient. However, in that case the polymerized layer must not stick too strongly to the mirror sheet.

[Martin]

It is interesting, whether pictures made Lippmann on dichromated materials were kept in museums?

Unfortunately, I've no idea. Perhaps Bill Alschuler knows...

[jeff-blyth]

............................There is an opinion, that Lippmann photography cannot be copied. It is offered even to use Lippmann photography as the most reliable way of protection of documents from a fake.
....................................................................

Let ours the Lippmann image represents a picture of a continuous spectrum. http://syneko.narod.ru/PIC1.JPG
Then in reflected light we shall see a picture shown on fig. 1à. In passing light we shall see the negative image shown on fig. 1b. And now attention, we register the new Lippmann image, using the radiation which has been pass through the first picture. Viewing the obtained picture in reflected light, we shall see a picture shown on fig. 2à., and in passing light – a picture shown on fig.2b. Comparing 1à and 2b we come to conclusion, that, that we saw in an original picture in reflected light, on the Lippmann copy it is visible in passing light. This major achievement as now the Lippmann picture can be observed and viewed without what or restrictions and reservation. And last step: we do the second Lippmann copy from the first copy. As a result we obtain a copy the initial Lippmann picture.

..........................................................................

What do you think of it?

Hi Aleksandr, I have been thinking about your interesting discussion here with Martin and Sergio.



And I am wondering if there is not something wrong with your concept of copying Lippmann colours using the idea of recording the complementary colours of the transmitted light or “passing light” as you say.



I am thinking that the idea is not wrong in principle but is wrong in practical terms.



For example I have a very nice Lippmann colour photo of fruit made by Darran Green . If for example an apple is reflecting a narrow band green at 532nm that means we have a few interference fringes that are very similar in principle to the fringes you get from a hologram recording made with a laser at that wavelength.

And of course a high efficiency green Denisyuk hologram leaves a PINK

shadow when white light passes through it. But PINK is not a pure wavelength is it? ---it is made up of all the remaining white light passing through the hologram minus the “pure” bit of 532nm reflected away .

So does this not mean that you would be asking your recording material

to make a Lippmann colour photo copy by interference fringes using all the whitelight spectrum remaining after each localized bit of colour is reflected away in the original photo?. -----surely not possible for the similar reason that

we cannot make Denisyuk holograms with a white light. No recording material is capable of recording the infinite range of standing waves compared to using the nearly pure standing wave pattern from a laser.



I would like to be corrected if my thinking is all wrong on this.

Jeff

[Sogokon'A]

jeff-blyth wrote:

I am thinking that the idea is not wrong in principle but is wrong in practical terms.

For example I have a very nice Lippmann colour photo of fruit made by Darran Green . If for example an apple is reflecting a narrow band green at 532nm that means we have a few interference fringes that are very similar in principle to the fringes you get from a hologram recording made with a laser at that wavelength.
And of course a high efficiency green Denisyuk hologram leaves a PINK
shadow when white light passes through it. But PINK is not a pure wavelength is it? ---it is made up of all the remaining white light passing through the hologram minus the “pure” bit of 532nm reflected away .
So does this not mean that you would be asking your recording material
to make a Lippmann colour photo copy by interference fringes using all the whitelight spectrum remaining after each localized bit of colour is reflected away in the original photo?. -----surely not possible for the similar reason that
we cannot make Denisyuk holograms with a white light. No recording material is capable of recording the infinite range of standing waves compared to using the nearly pure standing wave pattern from a laser.

I would like to be corrected if my thinking is all wrong on this.

Hi, Jeff, thanks for a fine question. I for a long time was going to consider this theme in the generalized kind, even have started to write article, but there was no enough a powerful stimulus to finish it.



Not pressing in the theory it is possible to ask so: than, the pink light going from the green hologram differs from the pink light going from a pink rose? I speak – anything. Same white light from which the part green is cut out. And flowerbeds of Versailles Lippmann photographed. Probably, there were even white roses.



We can make Denisyuk hologram with a white light, but it will be the hologram of a flat mirror located directly on the recording material. All is defined by coherence length. If you had to observe rings of Newton in white light you can precisely count quantity interference fringes in a standing wave.



If at you have a very nice Lippmann colour photo of fruit made by Darran Green, execute with it my experiment «in beams of the morning sun», please.

[jeff-blyth]

Hi, Jeff, thanks for a fine question. I for a long time was going to consider this theme in the generalized kind, even have started to write article, but there was no enough a powerful stimulus to finish it.

Not pressing in the theory it is possible to ask so: than, the pink light going from the green hologram differs from the pink light going from a pink rose? I speak – anything. Same white light from which the part green is cut out. And flowerbeds of Versailles Lippmann photographed. Probably, there were even white roses.

We can make Denisyuk hologram with a white light, but it will be the hologram of a flat mirror located directly on the recording material. All is defined by coherence length. If you had to observe rings of Newton in white light you can precisely count quantity interference fringes in a standing wave.
If at you have a very nice Lippmann colour photo of fruit made by Darran Green, execute with it my experiment «in beams of the morning sun», please.

Thanks for your good helpful points. So following my previous argument

we should not be able to see pink or white in a rose. O.K. so the only thing that is clear to me in this very unclear phenomenon is that I was wrong.



Darran has mailed me that he did once observe a Lippmann photo which had in the picture a red table cloth and that this red colour could actually be seen even on the glass side of the plate. The plate was a panchromatic Slavich plate which had probably around 6(?) micron thickness of emulsion.

This observation could mean that red interference fringes went right through that thickness of the emulsion but this was apparently an exceptional observation.



So I would propose that pure red roses are recorded with greater efficiency with the limitations of the recording material than are pink or white roses.

So I was wrong in my previous post but maybe not 100% wrong but say 92% wrong .

Jeff

[Sergio]

Hi, Jeff, thanks for a fine question. I for a long time was going to consider this theme in the generalized kind, even have started to write article, but there was no enough a powerful stimulus to finish it.

Not pressing in the theory it is possible to ask so: than, the pink light going from the green hologram differs from the pink light going from a pink rose? I speak – anything. Same white light from which the part green is cut out. And flowerbeds of Versailles Lippmann photographed. Probably, there were even white roses.

We can make Denisyuk hologram with a white light, but it will be the hologram of a flat mirror located directly on the recording material. All is defined by coherence length. If you had to observe rings of Newton in white light you can precisely count quantity interference fringes in a standing wave.
If at you have a very nice Lippmann colour photo of fruit made by Darran Green, execute with it my experiment «in beams of the morning sun», please.

Thanks for your good helpful points. So following my previous argument
we should not be able to see pink or white in a rose. O.K. so the only thing that is clear to me in this very unclear phenomenon is that I was wrong.

Darran has mailed me that he did once observe a Lippmann photo which had in the picture a red table cloth and that this red colour could actually be seen even on the glass side of the plate. The plate was a panchromatic Slavich plate which had probably around 6(?) micron thickness of emulsion.
This observation could mean that red interference fringes went right through that thickness of the emulsion but this was apparently an exceptional observation.

So I would propose that pure red roses are recorded with greater efficiency with the limitations of the recording material than are pink or white roses.
So I was wrong in my previous post but maybe not 100% wrong but say 92% wrong .
Jeff

I think we need another approach here because the Lippmann hologram is a recording of a continuous spectrum, we verify that (Hans Bjelkhagen) in some scenes with a dramatic colour fidelity per example white snow, we can divide the Lippmann pixel image in a 2D "phase locked" light standing wave with a sum of infinite (or almost) locked spectral standing waves that are self interfering and with neighbour spectral interference, because we can not self interfere all the continuous spectrum but only small pieces that "accept" to interfere itself..





A mathematical description could demonstrate that fine lines and all continuous spectrum can can be recorded at similar efficiency, I guess.