About copying Lippmann photography

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Sogokon'A

About copying Lippmann photography

Post by Sogokon'A »

walschuler wrote
Your 3-layer idea takes us back to traditional color photography. I am not sure it gains us anything compared to "pan" sensitization of a single layer. For one thing, my impression is that you really need major technology to produce emulsions like that.
Yes, really, we come back to a traditional color photography, but, pay attention, at a new level, on a new dialectic coil. What new the photo in traditional can introduce Lippmann’s photography? The first and main is a wide dynamic range of transferred brightnesses. This property from the holographic nature Lippmann’s images. In a classical photo this parameter name photographic breadth. When you photographed Lippmann photos, you, probably, have noticed, that the digital chamber does not transfer all to a detail the Lippmann image. Something it is necessary to endow: or details in shadows, or details on light sites. Or to do two pictures with different expositions, to show all to gradation of brightness.

When I have looked in the reference book as it is arranged color emulsion Kodak or Fuji I have been surprised: the arrangement of layers in accuracy coincides that I have offered. And moreover, each photosensitive layer consists of two sublayers! Therefore the technology of drawing of such thin layers already exists.
I want to mention here an idea I had back in 1995 or 1996. (I will have to check my notes.) I mentioned it to Denisyuk at the last Lake Forest symposium, the only one I have been to and the only time I met him. He was really fascinating by the way, a fountain of ideas. He said he had a similar idea but never tried it. To my knowledge, this is the first publication of this idea.
I met Jury Nikolaevich Denisjuk on school of holography, which takes place in small town on coast of Caspian Sea in 1985. Remarkable there was a person. I was amazed with his story how he at last minute has left the plane and has bought the ticket for other flight in other city. And when has arrived, has learned, that that first plane in which there was his baggage, it was broke at landing.

Then I have presented him the Lippmann picture (made on DCG), which worked, both on reflection, and on transmitting, giving fine complementary colors. There the peacock that I have photographed in the Kharkov zoo has been represented. I think, that this picture was not kept, as at that time I yet did not give special attention of hermetic sealing.

Working above 3-layer idea I recognized that layers will be photopolymeric as in this case it is possible to provide spectral independence of layers. If to use silver or chrome their natural sensitivity to blue light, will present considerable challenge and will cross out all expected advantages. I think, what exactly this circumstance and did not allow Denisjuk to start experiments. Therefore I impatiently also wait, that will tell in this regard Martin and Sergio.
I wonder if some version of this, perhaps at low grain concentration, could be made to work. But it is likely not simple to trick the grains to line up with flat surfaces parallel to the emulsion face.
To optimize the form, the size and orientation of grains under specific test conditions, it is very interesting, useful and perspective idea.
Martin

About copying Lippmann photography

Post by Martin »

Sogokon'A wrote:Then I have presented him the Lippmann picture (made on DCG), which worked, both on reflection, and on transmitting, giving fine complementary colors.


Having had a look at Glafkidès' book, Chimie et physique photographiques (“Photographic Chemistry” in the English edition), I run into a short paragraph (p.530) dealing with interference filters.

The author points out that treating a silver halide Lippmann layer with a mercuric chloride bleach, one achieves transmission images that reveal complementary colors.

He gives reference to J. L. Delcroix, Pour l'étude des monochromateurs Lippmann, Revue d'Optique, septembre 1948).



Glafkidès explicitely points to the making of interference filters based on DCG also. He mentions a 1955 paper by C. Winther.
Sergio

About copying Lippmann photography

Post by Sergio »

Sogokon'A wrote:walschuler wrote

Working above 3-layer idea I recognized that layers will be photopolymeric as in this case it is possible to provide spectral independence of layers. If to use silver or chrome their natural sensitivity to blue light, will present considerable challenge and will cross out all expected advantages. I think, what exactly this circumstance and did not allow Denisjuk to start experiments. Therefore I impatiently also wait, that will tell in this regard Martin and Sergio.


Fuji has a thermal printing system on paper that is organized in 3 layer with adequate colour filtering for cyan yellow and magenta, the triple stack is polymer based. In photopolymers the blue sensitivity is more easy to achieve and it may gave from deep black light to vivid blue a continuous spectrum. Is common find a blue photoinitiator that cover all the blue spectral range, heat colours are more "fine" tuning covered
Sogokon'A

About copying Lippmann photography

Post by Sogokon'A »

Martin wrote:
Sogokon'A писал(а):
Then I have presented him the Lippmann picture (made on DCG), which worked, both on reflection, and on transmitting, giving fine complementary colors.


Having had a look at Glafkidиs' book, Chimie et physique photographiques (“Photographic Chemistry” in the English edition), I run into a short paragraph (p.530) dealing with interference filters.
The author points out that treating a silver halide Lippmann layer with a mercuric chloride bleach, one achieves transmission images that reveal complementary colors.
He gives reference to J. L. Delcroix, Pour l'йtude des monochromateurs Lippmann, Revue d'Optique, septembre 1948).

Glafkidиs explicitely points to the making of interference filters based on DCG also. He mentions a 1955 paper by C. Winther.
Thank you very much, Martin. It is such impression, that you have unlimited access to a bottomless well of the information. It is excellently!

Thus, it is possible to draw some intermediate conclusions.

1. The problem of copying Lippmann images is connected with a problem of their bleaching. Usually law of conservation of energy in optics write down so: R+T+A=1 where R-reflection, T-transmition, A-absorption. But as shows experience, for increase in reflection it is not enough to make grains of silver transparent. It is necessary to consider also dispersion D. Then we shall receive R+T+A+D=1 and to minimize it is necessary sum A+D.

2. The most poisonous bleach yields the best results. Therefore it is necessary to carry out careful microscopic researches of work of all known bleaches on different types emulsion and to compare with them to work of chloride of mercury. Here again on the foreground there are researches on management in the sizes, the form and orientation of grains, on what you have paid attention, and that has already started to do William.
Sogokon'A

About copying Lippmann photography

Post by Sogokon'A »

Sergio wrote:
Sogokon'A писал(а):
walschuler wrote

Working above 3-layer idea I recognized that layers will be photopolymeric as in this case it is possible to provide spectral independence of layers. If to use silver or chrome their natural sensitivity to blue light, will present considerable challenge and will cross out all expected advantages. I think, what exactly this circumstance and did not allow Denisjuk to start experiments. Therefore I impatiently also wait, that will tell in this regard Martin and Sergio.



Fuji has a thermal printing system on paper that is organized in 3 layer with adequate colour filtering for cyan yellow and magenta, the triple stack is polymer based.
Whether uses Fuji an interference in this case?
In photopolymers the blue sensitivity is more easy to achieve and it may gave from deep black light to vivid blue a continuous spectrum. Is common find a blue photoinitiator that cover all the blue spectral range, heat colours are more "fine" tuning covered
Whether there is an opportunity on the basis of your polymers to make a sandwich similar to that, what I have described earlier?
Sergio

About copying Lippmann photography

Post by Sergio »

The fuji article related a paper tone imaging system, no interference, it is in Japanese... :(



Matter of fact actually one can self coat the polymer emulsion using painting industry techniques as rod coating and laminate a cover and even another staked coating, the inner cover thickness maybe thin 12-36um and the outside ones made of polyester, however for Lippmann thin coats are difficult to handle so the stack may be used for polymer commercial applications only.
jeff-blyth

About copying Lippmann photography

Post by jeff-blyth »

walschuler wrote:...............................I want to mention here an idea I had back in 1995 or 1996. (I will have to check my notes.) I mentioned it to Denisyuk at the last Lake Forest symposium, the only one I have been to and the only time I met him. He was really fascinating by the way, a fountain of ideas. He said he had a similar idea but never tried it. To my knowledge, this is the first publication of this idea.

The idea arose in thinking about the speed limitations of Lippmann and holographic emulsions. At the time, T-Max (triangular grain) emulsions were new in the market. I looked into the grain shape and discovered that, while large in surface extent, these grains were very thin in depth, and all were oriented large face parallel to the surface of the emulsion. (This gives them thier speed advantage, at the same time coonserving silver.) So I asked, were they thin enough to record interference at the half-wavelength level for a Lippmann or Denisyuk holo (their surface dimension was clearly too large to do transmission holos)? Eventually I found that their thickness should work. Then the problem was that all such commercial emulsions include an anti-halation layer, to kill back surface reflections, making the emulsions opaque and thus useless for 2-sided work. It took an age to find someone at Kodak to talk to about this, but eventually (more than a year and a half later (!), I got someone's attention, and telling them I had a "research purpose," I got them to produce a box of 4x5 plates, at a cost of $300! You would have thought that omitting the anti-halation would have been simple and thus cheap, but no such luck.

When they arrived, I tried them out with zero results. When I sacrificed one and looked at it in the light, the emulsion looked opaque, almost normal for commercial photographic emulsions. I never settled whether they sent me the wrong plates, or whether even minus the anti-halation layer, the density of the T-grains was such as to cause the opacity. I never tried to section them and look at them under a microscope.

I wonder if some version of this, perhaps at low grain concentration, could be made to work. But it is likely not simple to trick the grains to line up with flat surfaces parallel to the emulsion face.

The possibility of a perhaps 10xs faster emulsion still tantalizes me. Lippmann silver emulsions have an ISO around 1. If we could get to 25, it would be equal to Kodak Panatomic X. Snapshots!


I think you should be congratulated for at least trying to get this way-out idea to work and especially of course sacrificing 300 bucks on it.



One can see that the large opacity problem ruined the idea because

of the refractive index difference gelatin at 1.5 and the T grains at ~2.3.

I would be prepared I think to bet $300 that the idea would work if only you could have immersed the grains in a medium of RI also around ~2.3

then it would have not been opaque. Considering just the possibilities of using this to record Denisyuk holograms rather than the finer complications of Lippmann color pics where I am out of my depth, you would see your hologram as an absorption type after development but then there would be no gain if you tried to bleach it conventionally because you could not create a RI differential. But wait a moment! you could use halide free potassium ferricyanide bleach ("Farmers Reducer" in old photography speak) and that would give Ag ferrocyanide with an RI

of just ~1.8. So all you need to do now is get a gelatin replacement for your T grains with an RI of ~2.3 . Hmmmmmmmmmm

Ah one more mad flash I think if you were to let your emulsion gel in a centrifuge then the T grains would automatically line up in parallel

layers.

Jeff
walschuler

About copying Lippmann photography

Post by walschuler »

Jeff wrote:


One can see that the large opacity problem ruined the idea because
of the refractive index difference gelatin at 1.5 and the T grains at ~2.3.
I would be prepared I think to bet $300 that the idea would work if only you could have immersed the grains in a medium of RI also around ~2.3
then it would have not been opaque. Considering just the possibilities of using this to record Denisyuk holograms rather than the finer complications of Lippmann color pics where I am out of my depth, you would see your hologram as an absorption type after development but then there would be no gain if you tried to bleach it conventionally because you could not create a RI differential. But wait a moment! you could use halide free potassium ferricyanide bleach ("Farmers Reducer" in old photography speak) and that would give Ag ferrocyanide with an RI
of just ~1.8. So all you need to do now is get a gelatin replacement for your T grains with an RI of ~2.3 . Hmmmmmmmmmm




I love your response but have questions:



Since silver halide grains are above 2 in index and the gelatin is 1.5, why isn't unexposed holographic/Lippmann emulsion opaque in its usual embodiments? Lippmann himself mentioned that he had to go to low grain concentration to achieve transparency. Slavich PFG-01 is transparent with a slight bluish tint before exposure, which I take to be from a small residual scattering effect. So why worry about the index differential?



Is there another matrix besides gelatin that has an index above 2? Above 4???



How do you keep the T-grains parallel when you coat the plate under your centrifugation grain allignment scheme?
jeff-blyth

About copying Lippmann photography

Post by jeff-blyth »

walschuler wrote:.........................................................
Since silver halide grains are above 2 in index and the gelatin is 1.5, why isn't unexposed holographic/Lippmann emulsion opaque in its usual embodiments? Lippmann himself mentioned that he had to go to low grain concentration to achieve transparency. Slavich PFG-01 is transparent with a slight bluish tint before exposure, which I take to be from a small residual scattering effect. So why worry about the index differential?

Is there another matrix besides gelatin that has an index above 2? Above 4???

How do you keep the T-grains parallel when you coat the plate under your centrifugation grain allignment scheme?


The scatter problem is hugely affected by the diameter of the particle,

assuming it is spheroidal (Rayleigh's principle I think is that the scatter is proportional to the sixth 6th power of the diameter and inversely proportional to the 4th power of the wavelength.)



But regardless of any fancy mathsy analysis, if a particle's maximum dimension is much small than the light's wavelength, then we intuitively can understand that scatter can be absent, particularly to red laser light. The bluish tint you mention in Slavich film before exposure is mainly due to dye probably but blue due to scatter (like cigarette smoke) is also there if one is using an unsafe safe-light where some of the grains may be aggregating enough to match any blue wavelengths. You can have a sheet with the smallest isolated AgBr grains with no sign of scatter but if you have a few rogue large grains due to aggregations of small ones (emulsion makers call them "rocks") as a tiny proportion of the total. then the scatter can be quite bad due to their presence. Hence Lippmann's concern to keep AgBr concentration low enough to prevent aggregates.



But in the case of your "T" grains these are ALL essentially ultra-thin flakes with their 2 other dimensions several times larger than your laser wavelength so I figure that the scatter would be hopeless unless you can eliminate that refractive index difference.



With regard to finding a polymer instead of gelatin with RI around 2 .

I am afraid it is not likely. The highest RI stuff I have managed to get holograms in was polyvinyl carbazole ("PVK") .

I guess crystals like lithium niobate are around that RI ....but this is all getting way off your T grain subject.



On the centrifuge idea I think the forces even with low spin rate would readily squeeze all the grains into parallel layers with minimal gelatin between them , but what to replace gelatin with? I have a mad hunch that cadmium acetate might work as I have found this to form a peculiar very low melting point glassy state.

Jeff
Martin

About copying Lippmann photography

Post by Martin »

jeff-blyth wrote:With regard to finding a polymer instead of gelatin with RI around 2 .
I am afraid it is not likely. The highest RI stuff I have managed to get holograms in was polyvinyl carbazole ("PVK") .
I guess crystals like lithium niobate are around that RI ....but this is all getting way off your T grain subject.




What comes to my mind is colloidal silica sol – though I don't know how high an RI might be expected in that case. To some extent it seems to be compatible with silver halide technology (at least that's what a couple of Agfa patents suggest).
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