About copying Lippmann photography

[Sogokon'A]

The Nature – is not prodigal. It repeats the same principle, the same idea repeatedly. But at each new recurrence it "dresses" this idea in such fantastic "clothes", that we spend years, decades and even centuries that in the end with surprise to find out, that we already know it, and the result could be expected.



There is an opinion, that Lippmann photography cannot be copied. It is offered even to use Lippmann photography as the most reliable way of protection of documents from a fake. Look, for example, H. I. Bjelkhagen, " Secure photographic method and apparatus, " US patent No. 5,972,546, Oct 26, 1999 and http://www.holographyforum.org/HoloWiki ... n_Security



I see three ways of copying Lippmann photography: "simple", "difficult" and "very difficult". I shall tell about "very difficult" as "simple" and " difficult " after "very difficult" will seem a children's entertainment.



Let ours the Lippmann image represents a picture of a continuous spectrum. http://syneko.narod.ru/PIC1.JPG

Then in reflected light we shall see a picture shown on fig. 1а. In passing light we shall see the negative image shown on fig. 1b. And now attention, we register the new Lippmann image, using the radiation which has been pass through the first picture. Viewing the obtained picture in reflected light, we shall see a picture shown on fig. 2а., and in passing light – a picture shown on fig.2b. Comparing 1а and 2b we come to conclusion, that, that we saw in an original picture in reflected light, on the Lippmann copy it is visible in passing light. This major achievement as now the Lippmann picture can be observed and viewed without what or restrictions and reservation. And last step: we do the second Lippmann copy from the first copy. As a result we obtain a copy the initial Lippmann picture.



Both the first and second copying can be carried out with an increase. It is natural, that resulted above a reasoning are fair under condition of absence of absorption in layer. Considering that circumstance, that poisons in the past, and especially in before last, century, was more available, than now, and masters Lippmann photography carried out irreproachable bleaching with HgCl2, this condition is executed. There is still a pair “stones under water”, but shall solve problems in process of their delivery.



As acknowledgement of the stated reasons the patent in which I used process of copying of the Lippmann photos obtained on layers DCG (though also rather specific) can see http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPOD ... 540802&F=0. And also, at execution Lippmann images of a solar disk, I actually copied spectral properties of the interference filter on DCG and instead of transmission in blue area have received reflection (see pic.1 and 2 http://syneko.narod.ru/Lipp_sun.JPG).

I am absolutely assured, that Hans Bjelkhagen and Darren Green for pair business hours in laboratory will confirm made observation, having made copies of the Lippmann pictures with use of white light.



Thus, the considered way of copying is recurrence of known principles magnificently decorated and carefully camouflaged under "impossibility" "positive-negative-positive" and "matrix-punch-matrix".



I till now am under impression of Neuhaus’s small picture seen 20 years ago. It is possible to dream only, what impression will be made with the increased pictures of masters of the past. If to collect all the Lippmann pictures scattered on museums of the world and hided in black boxes, to make from them the increased copies and to create mobile gallery such project will very quickly pay back. Unfortunately, in my country my ideas (it is equal as knowledge and experience) do not find understanding and support. I hope, that in other countries not all so is gloomy, and this idea will find support and will receive due continuation.



The problem of copying Lippmann pictures gets special value in connection with occurrence of devices of storage of the information, based on Lippmann’s a principle (http://www.opticsexpress.org/viewmedia. ... 0577&seq=0 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc ) To copy some terabyte of the information in some minutes (or even seconds) - it is sternly. I do not know only, who will take advantage of it earlier - manufacturers of disks or malefactors?



What do you think of it?

[Martin]

The Nature – is not prodigal. It repeats the same principle, the same idea repeatedly. But at each new recurrence it "dresses" this idea in such fantastic "clothes", that we spend years, decades and even centuries that in the end with surprise to find out, that we already know it, and the result could be expected.

There is an opinion, that Lippmann photography cannot be copied. It is offered even to use Lippmann photography as the most reliable way of protection of documents from a fake. Look, for example, H. I. Bjelkhagen, " Secure photographic method and apparatus, " US patent No. 5,972,546, Oct 26, 1999 and http://www.holographyforum.org/HoloWiki ... n_Security

I see three ways of copying Lippmann photography: "simple", "difficult" and "very difficult". I shall tell about "very difficult" as "simple" and " difficult " after "very difficult" will seem a children's entertainment.

Let ours the Lippmann image represents a picture of a continuous spectrum. http://syneko.narod.ru/PIC1.JPG
Then in reflected light we shall see a picture shown on fig. 1à. In passing light we shall see the negative image shown on fig. 1b. And now attention, we register the new Lippmann image, using the radiation which has been pass through the first picture. Viewing the obtained picture in reflected light, we shall see a picture shown on fig. 2à., and in passing light – a picture shown on fig.2b. Comparing 1à and 2b we come to conclusion, that, that we saw in an original picture in reflected light, on the Lippmann copy it is visible in passing light. This major achievement as now the Lippmann picture can be observed and viewed without what or restrictions and reservation. And last step: we do the second Lippmann copy from the first copy. As a result we obtain a copy the initial Lippmann picture.

Both the first and second copying can be carried out with an increase. It is natural, that resulted above a reasoning are fair under condition of absence of absorption in layer. Considering that circumstance, that poisons in the past, and especially in before last, century, was more available, than now, and masters Lippmann photography carried out irreproachable bleaching with HgCl2, this condition is executed. There is still a pair “stones under water”, but shall solve problems in process of their delivery.

As acknowledgement of the stated reasons the patent in which I used process of copying of the Lippmann photos obtained on layers DCG (though also rather specific) can see http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPOD ... 540802&F=0. And also, at execution Lippmann images of a solar disk, I actually copied spectral properties of the interference filter on DCG and instead of transmission in blue area have received reflection (see pic.1 and 2 http://syneko.narod.ru/Lipp_sun.JPG).
I am absolutely assured, that Hans Bjelkhagen and Darren Green for pair business hours in laboratory will confirm made observation, having made copies of the Lippmann pictures with use of white light.

Thus, the considered way of copying is recurrence of known principles magnificently decorated and carefully camouflaged under "impossibility" "positive-negative-positive" and "matrix-punch-matrix".

I till now am under impression of Neuhaus’s small picture seen 20 years ago. It is possible to dream only, what impression will be made with the increased pictures of masters of the past. If to collect all the Lippmann pictures scattered on museums of the world and hided in black boxes, to make from them the increased copies and to create mobile gallery such project will very quickly pay back. Unfortunately, in my country my ideas (it is equal as knowledge and experience) do not find understanding and support. I hope, that in other countries not all so is gloomy, and this idea will find support and will receive due continuation.

The problem of copying Lippmann pictures gets special value in connection with occurrence of devices of storage of the information, based on Lippmann’s a principle (http://www.opticsexpress.org/viewmedia. ... 0577&seq=0 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc ) To copy some terabyte of the information in some minutes (or even seconds) - it is sternly. I do not know only, who will take advantage of it earlier - manufacturers of disks or malefactors?

What do you think of it?

That's pretty interesting!

Actually, I am fairly sure I somewhere read about the possibility of copying Lippmann photographs. I believe among the papers I uploaded on the forum, there was one dealing with that subject. Unfortunately, I am unable locating it (and I've no clue about its author).



Picking up your idea about copying historic Lippmann photos on display in several museums: that's something we (Sergio and I) also spent some time discussing.

Yes, of course, making those rare photos available to a broader public, would undoubtedly be a very attractive idea. I wonder how your copying method would play out with the Lippmann photographs I saw at the musée de l'Elysée, Lausanne (http://www.elysee.ch/index.php?id=164). I seem to remember most if not all items were mounted on glass wedges by means of Canada balsam. How would your method work out in such a case?

[Sogokon'A]

I not read all and not all looked through (prevent a language barrier). But it is very interesting. Who, when, and in what occasion raised this theme? And why it has not received continuation?



I was in Switzerland in 2002. I was in Lausanne. One day. If I knew, that in a museum de l'Elysée is 133 a Lippmann’s picture, I would decline all excursions and would find a way to get in it.



Concerning a prism – there are two more spare ways!

[Martin]

I not read all and not all looked through (prevent a language barrier). But it is very interesting. Who, when, and in what occasion raised this theme? And why it has not received continuation?

One thing that came to my mind is, how much the copying method you mentioned, relates to a specific recording medium (DCG in this case). I ask because Lippmann himself pointed out that dichromated systems (DCG, dichromated cellulose, dichromated albumin) showed the unusual feature of producing complementary colors when put on “transmission mode”. I've to reread those papers but I believe Lippmann considered this to be distinct from silver halide recording systems.
That's actually something I keep wondering: why is it we rarely (if ever at all!) hear of transmission interference color filters made on grounds of silver halide emulsions?

I was in Switzerland in 2002. I was in Lausanne. One day. If I knew, that in a museum de l'Elysée is 133 a Lippmann’s picture, I would decline all excursions and would find a way to get in it.

OK, meet you there the next time you'll be in Lausanne.

[Sogokon'A]

Martin wrote

One thing that came to my mind is, how much the copying method you mentioned, relates to a specific recording medium (DCG in this case). I ask because Lippmann himself pointed out that dichromated systems (DCG, dichromated cellulose, dichromated albumin) showed the unusual feature of producing complementary colors when put on “transmission mode”. I've to reread those papers but I believe Lippmann considered this to be distinct from silver halide recording systems.

In the biographic book devoted Usagin, there is a mention that Lippmann did pictures on egg albumin. Also, that these pictures had fantastic brightness. About the spectral properties – nothing.

That's actually something I keep wondering: why is it we rarely (if ever at all!) hear of transmission interference color filters made on grounds of silver halide emulsions?

Me interests, these are how much great “stones under water ”. First of all, dispersion of the bleached picture. Intensity of dispersion "forward" (“ transmission mode ”) can appear much more, than intensity of dispersion "back" (“reflection mode”). Let's wait, that will tell in this occasion Hans Bjelkhagen or Darren Green.

OK, meet you there the next time you'll be in Lausanne.

Thanks, Martin! I Hope, this meeting will be for actual copying those of 133 pictures. On photopolymer.

[Sergio]

Sogokon your observations are pretty amazing.



I wonder the requirements for the photopolymer (I guess the unique practical media to record the fine Lippmann image without layer distortions) for original and copy record, since a thin layer is used, it is rather critical.



I wish have a "Lippmann Optical Recording" texbook..

[Sogokon'A]

Sergio wrote

I wonder the requirements for the photopolymer (I guess the unique practical media to record the fine Lippmann image without layer distortions) for original and copy record, since a thin layer is used, it is rather critical.

Yes, you are right. I would tell even so: requirements to a registering layer for obtain of the first and second copies are various. And for their optimization greater work is necessary.

I wish have a "Lippmann Optical Recording" texbook..

Thanks Sergio! Good idea. I somehow did not think of it.

Here today in beams of the morning sun has made small experiment. But did not know as it to present at a forum. And now all is simple – it is an illustration in the textbook.

http://syneko.narod.ru/261A.JPG

http://syneko.narod.ru/262A.JPG



[img]Syneko.narod.ru/261A.JPG[/img]

[img]Syneko.narod.ru/262A.JPG[/img]

[Martin]

Sergio wrote

I wonder the requirements for the photopolymer (I guess the unique practical media to record the fine Lippmann image without layer distortions) for original and copy record, since a thin layer is used, it is rather critical.

Yes, you are right. I would tell even so: requirements to a registering layer for obtain of the first and second copies are various. And for their optimization greater work is necessary.

I wish have a "Lippmann Optical Recording" texbook..

Thanks Sergio! Good idea. I somehow did not think of it.
Here today in beams of the morning sun has made small experiment. But did not know as it to present at a forum. And now all is simple – it is an illustration in the textbook.
http://syneko.narod.ru/261A.JPG
http://syneko.narod.ru/262A.JPG

[img]Syneko.narod.ru/261A.JPG[/img]
[img]Syneko.narod.ru/262A.JPG[/img]

Your photos are very impressive!

Here is a crude translation of what Lippmann had to say about Lippmann photographs put on “transmission mode” (Photographies en couleurs du spectre négatives par transmission, 1905):

...on these photos we notice..., that the colors seen in “transmission mode” have become complementary and, the thus gained negatives are brilliant. If someday we were to obtain the same results not from bichromated layers, which are slow and not very isochromatic, but instead from silver halide gelatin layers, we would be able to make copies with a printing frame just like for any ordinary photograph.
(...on constate sur ces épreuves..., quel les couleurs vues par transparence sont changées en leurs complémentaires, et que les négatifs ainsis obtenus sont brillants. Si l'on arrivait quelque jour à obtenir le même résultat en partant, non plus de couches bichromatées, qui sont peu sensibles e peu isochromatiques, mais de pellicules au gélatinobromure, on pourrait mulitplier les épreuves en couleurs par tirage au châssis-presse, comme dan le cas de la photographie ordinaire.)

So this seems to suggest the formation of complementary colors on transmission mode may be DCG-specific (well, actually Lippmann speaks of dichromated cellulose).

[Sergio]

Sergio wrote

I wonder the requirements for the photopolymer (I guess the unique practical media to record the fine Lippmann image without layer distortions) for original and copy record, since a thin layer is used, it is rather critical.

Yes, you are right. I would tell even so: requirements to a registering layer for obtain of the first and second copies are various. And for their optimization greater work is necessary.

I wish have a "Lippmann Optical Recording" texbook..

Thanks Sergio! Good idea. I somehow did not think of it.
Here today in beams of the morning sun has made small experiment. But did not know as it to present at a forum. And now all is simple – it is an illustration in the textbook.
http://syneko.narod.ru/261A.JPG
http://syneko.narod.ru/262A.JPG

Thank you for the photos, noting the interesting complementary colour separation that is pretty amazing.



Actually with a photopolymer film we could coat a few um (panchromatic for the future) in a base film that have a fine optical adhesive to be laminated to glass, this is very stable for the reflection hologram exposure.



As a film cover we can also laminate a mirror like plastic film (also a high optical quality) with no problem forming a stable Lippmann photopolymer film, the mirror film can be removed after exposure. The question is the thickness of the protective cover between aluminium and photopolymer, that is around 0.8nm, so a bare film foil is necessary..

[Sogokon'A]

Martin wrote:

Here is a crude translation of what Lippmann had to say about Lippmann photographs put on “transmission mode” (Photographies en couleurs du spectre nйgatives par transmission, 1905):

Цитата:
...on these photos we notice..., that the colors seen in “transmission mode” have become complementary and, the thus gained negatives are brilliant. If someday we were to obtain the same results not from bichromated layers, which are slow and not very isochromatic, but instead from silver halide gelatin layers, we would be able to make copies with a printing frame just like for any ordinary photograph.
(...on constate sur ces йpreuves..., quel les couleurs vues par transparence sont changйes en leurs complйmentaires, et que les nйgatifs ainsis obtenus sont brillants. Si l'on arrivait quelque jour а obtenir le mкme rйsultat en partant, non plus de couches bichromatйes, qui sont peu sensibles e peu isochromatiques, mais de pellicules au gйlatinobromure, on pourrait mulitplier les йpreuves en couleurs par tirage au chвssis-presse, comme dan le cas de la photographie ordinaire.)


So this seems to suggest the formation of complementary colors on transmission mode may be DCG-specific (well, actually Lippmann speaks of dichromated cellulose).

Thanks, Martin, for the interesting citation. Certainly, very difficultly find out that the person 102 years ago kept in mind. But we shall try.

1. Lippmann supposed a possibility of copying on silver halide. But did not duplicate.

2. He did copies on the dichromate material; we shall name it conditionally DCG.

3. From the text unclear what exactly it duplicated, that has been represented on the original and on a copy. It is the main difficulty. If there is in the text a mention of it that essentially will help.

My assumptions. The unique experiment supported by common sense, is registration of a linear spectrum on DCG and it’s copying on DCG. Then really obtained negative will be “brilliant”.