2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

The 2008 Contest is Now Open!
ron olson

2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

Post by ron olson »

Look, I'm not trying to be cute about this - why not submit holograms for evaluation rather than photographs? I have sent several hundred images around the world and have suffered exactly two instances of breakage - both were large format pieces within mats and frames. No carrier, foreign or domestic, has ever lost one of our images. If it's the bother or expense of packing and shipping - perhaps that would eliminate some of the less serious entrants - certainly not anyone who thought highly of his or her chances. My best guess is that those judging the works will treat them with great respect and care - something that doesn't always happen when submitting to museums, ad agencies or product marketing managers.

As to my web site, I take no offense - the images are merely there to convey compositional information to people already familiar with our work.
MichaelH

2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

Post by MichaelH »

ron olson wrote:Look, I'm not trying to be cute about this - why not submit holograms for evaluation rather than photographs?


For the next formal gathering I agree that there should be a live contest.



Given the choice I'd rather do it live but I certainly wasn't going to suggest that everyone ship me their holograms for judging (I'm not that egotistical) and there won't be a gathering of more than a couple of holographers in one place to make up a judging panel until sometime next year at the earliest.



I'm also not too keen on personally taking on the liability associated with the storing, packing and return shipping of a dozen or more holograms. Doesn't mean I would never be willing to handle, just not this time.



For *this* contest my main goal was to get people off their duffs and making holograms, get some cool prizes for the winners and get some wider exposure for the forum and wiki.



IMO anyone who wants to organize future contests gets to call all the shots and take on whatever responsibility they desire. If they want it associated with the holography forum they'll also need to get Colin's buy-in.
Hans

2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

Post by Hans »

I think you are doing a fantastic job by organizing this Michael. I just wished I had my lab finished in time to join the contest. But I am off to a series of flights again, and frankly I am not even close to being able to compete in the contest with all the other guys on the forum. But I will send you one of my MBDCG hologram when I come home.
Tom B.

2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

Post by Tom B. »

It was recognized from the start that the idea of judging holograms from photographs is inherently absurd, but as mentioned the logistics of organizing a real holographic contest are a problem. It was intended to be easy to enter and was just for fun.



What ends up getting emphasized are the artistic, compositional and photographic skills of the participants, rather than the pure holographic quality of the images. To me this is not all bad - it might help to equalize things between beginners and experienced holographers with fancy equipment. I sort of hope too that it makes people think more about the content of their holograms.



I wonder if raising the ante by offering prizes of non-trivial value was a mistake. It might motivate some people to make holograms that otherwise wouldn't, but with real money at stake some people could lose sight of the fun factor...
MichaelH

2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

Post by MichaelH »

Hans wrote:I think you are doing a fantastic job ...
No thanks are necessary but I appreciate it just the same. Be careful in SA.
Tom B wrote:I wonder if raising the ante by offering prizes of non-trivial value was a mistake.


It's certainly got edges on both sides but the alternative was to have fewer entrants and those would most likely be the same people that already populate the gallery today. While I certainly enjoy looking at your holograms I wanted some bait to get new blood in.



Doing it on-line may also have the side effect of, as you put it, emphasizing the "artistic, compositional and photographic skills of the participants." I think this is a good thing. What's missing from a lot of holograms are those elements that raise it above the level of gimmicky technical trickery and into the realm of artwork. The use of the phrase "gimmicky technical trickery" isn't meant disparagingly, I can look at porcelain cats that show off the special traits of holography all day long but the average member of the public won't be interested for more than a few minutes.



Now, having said all that, it's going to be obvious what criteria I'll be using to judge the holograms but that doesn't mean that everyone else needs to use the same criteria. That's another reason for allowing and encouraging the forum members to judge. Everyone can and should use their own criteria.
BobH

2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

Post by BobH »

Doing it on-line may also have the side effect of, as you put it, emphasizing the "artistic, compositional and photographic skills of the participants." I think this is a good thing.


What?!? :shock: :?



Is this an artist's forum? A photographer's forum?



I'd think a contest sponsored by a holography forum would be judged according to the holographic skills of the participants. Technical things like lighting, photographic handling of the material, control of color and its uniformity, etc. (I'll think of more later).



Is it always necessary for holographers to aspire to be good artists, according to the rules handed down for sculptors, painters and photographers? Why not develop our own unique aesthetic? Why not encourage mastery of holographic technique? Isn't that what we all work to improve?



Please don't take offense at these questions, Michael. I think your enthusiasm for the contest is great, and I really appreciate your organizing it.
MichaelH

2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

Post by MichaelH »

BobH wrote:Is this an artist's forum? A photographer's forum?
What *is* an artist? What moves a photo out of the realm of "snapshot" and into "art?"

What *is* a "holographer?" Is it someone that messes with lasers, lenses and mirrors? Is it someone that faithfully reproduces 3D objects in a flat medium? Is it someone that can make objects poke out of a flat plane? Is it someone that stretches the medium to create new and different imagery? Is it some ever-changing combination of all those elements?
BobH wrote:I'd think a contest sponsored by a holography forum would be judged according to the holographic skills of the participants.


That's the fun, to me, of this format. You can judge the entries by any criteria you choose. You don't have to use mine or anyone else's.
BobH wrote:Is it always necessary for holographers to aspire to be good artists, according to the rules handed down for sculptors, painters and photographers? Why not develop our own unique aesthetic? Why not encourage mastery of holographic technique? Isn't that what we all work to improve?
Yes and no. Everyone has their own criteria and we're not all working toward the same end-goal.
BobH wrote:Please don't take offense at these questions, Michael.


I'm not. I'm not even trying to convince others that my views are the right ones. Just that they're mine and that everyone should use their own rules when judging the entries.



Anyone who's entered any kind of contest has surely experienced the stunned wonderment when a judge shows favor for some piece that is "clearly" inferior to some other piece in some aspect. That's no doubt going to happen in this contest and is just part of real life.
ron olson

2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

Post by ron olson »

One of the things I struggle most with in marketing holography is conveying the magic using non-holographic media. You may or may not believe this but the vast majority of people who see our work tell me "I've never seen anything like this before". My list now includes many people who, one would think, have seen pretty much everything in the way of visual information" out there" if only because their positions make them candidates for a non-stop visual onslaught. Considering that the technique is today more than thirty years old, I find this to be somewhat tragic but the clean slate does present certain advantages (hence my use of the term holograph to convey someything of a fresh start).

I regress..... the true magic of holography must be experienced firsthand (i.e. I stress the impressive degree of detail in our work and even that is lost in a jpeg translation).

As Bob alluded to (sort of) - it is the magic that should be judged - not the model. If one could truly appreciate holography using photography, this forum would have considerably more regular contributors. This having been said, I will back-off and promise not to rain on your parade any more Michael. I agree fully that it's your contest and you set whatever rules you're comfortable with.
Colin Kaminski

2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

Post by Colin Kaminski »

Ron, Tom and Bob I have realized all of your points as well. Next year will find the competition much more formal with a judging panel (I am hoping for 5 judges) and the judges will not be allowed to enter their work. Since Michael has done so much work on getting sponsors we are now in a position to expand the rules and require the submission of the actual hologram.



After this competition is over I plan to open a public debate on the rules and the goals of the competition. I was thinking of starting the conversation already but our fous needs to be on this year now. We can wait for next year.



I also need to point out that this is only posible because of Michael's hard work in getting sponsers. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
MichaelH

2006 Holography contest Q&A/discussion thread

Post by MichaelH »

ron olson wrote:As Bob alluded to (sort of) - it is the magic that should be judged - not the model.
I generally agree but given the limitations we have to work with, I'd rather have a flawed contest than no contest at all.

As an analogy, think about this forum. When it first started it was on network54 using software that was pretty junky compared to what was currently available on the net. Several people complained that there was better available but many of us put up with it because it was a valuable resource from just about day one and it was free to the person who started it. It grew from there though and is an even better resource today and the software no longer gets in the way.
ron olson wrote:If one could truly appreciate holography using photography, this forum would have considerably more regular contributors. This having been said, I will back-off and promise not to rain on your parade any more Michael. I agree fully that it's your contest and you set whatever rules you're comfortable with.


While I would say I'm not trying to sway you, at some level that is probably what I'm trying to do, even though that's not what I'm trying to do. :-)

You should feel free to state your opinions as long as you (the collective you) can handle rebuttal. You don't need to back off.



Keep in mind the following..



IMO it's not enough to come out and say something is flawed. Try to put out suggestions for how it can be fixed, ideally in such a way that you contribute to the solution.



It would be great to have live judges but the only ways I can think of to do that are:



1) Have the holograms and judges shipped to the same location. Most likely by having the judging take place at a conference. Benefits: judging can be based on viewing of the actual holograms. Drawbacks: Judges have to be willing to get themselves to and pay for the conference, entrants must ship their holograms out and pay to have them shipped back.



2) Make it a traveling contest where the entries are shipped from judge to judge and finally back to the entrants. Benefits: Cheaper on the judges and you get live judging. Drawbacks: Entrants have to pay for shipping. Limited number of judges.



3) Let the holograms be judged by the unwashed masses ;-). Someone sets up a display in their area (library or some such other public space) and invites the public to view and judge the entries. Benefits: all the holograms get shipped to one place and none of the judges pay to get there. Drawbacks: You don't have a clue what criteria is used to judge a piece (but maybe that's ok), someone has to incur the time and monetary expense to organize, set up, tear down the display, tally votes and ship back the holograms.



I'd love to do any of those but they all take more resources and coordination than were possible this round. If people are willing to help out I'd be more than willing to work to find a way to make them happen in future contests.
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