First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

This is a forum to share experiences and ideas about holography.
Kiffdino

First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

Post by Kiffdino »

hi,
i use a coherent compass 315m green laser with 100mw output
the gelatin is food quality "premium :D "220 bloom from "Gelita"
size of beam spread is about 60cm i got to measure that again.

for baking i got a small pizza oven with a steel plate inside for even heating up.
for cooling down i got a seperate stteel plate.
the steel plate thickness is 8mm on the heating plate and 10mm on the cooling plate.
Should i put the cooling plate in the freezer prior to baking?
dave battin

First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

Post by dave battin »

check out this older post, it seems as if you and michael had similar issues ........

http://holographyforum.org/phpBB2/viewt ... ff+cooling
Kiffdino

First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

Post by Kiffdino »

amazing, so many questions answerd in that post, thankyou
JohnFP

First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

Post by JohnFP »

Woooooooaa dude, you don't want to be heating 99% alcohol on the stove. Do yourself a favor and go out and buy a heating pad for your back. Something like this one. http://www.chinatraderonline.com/Heatin ... 750525.htm. Then simply put it under a sealable food container in which you store and keep the alcohol. I found that the max setting on the pad gets quite hot enough. I removed the cloth cover on mine. Also, about the lidded containers, you can keep the lid on the container until just before you want to put the plate in it. And if your plate is to remain in the container for a couple of minutes, you can recover the container during that time. This helps in two ways. One, it keeps the higher perctage alcohols from absorbing ambient moisture from the air so quickly, and two, it help keep down fumes for you health. I can tell when I have been in the lab too long, I get acid indigestion or acid reflex or heartburn, whatever you call it.

Yes, as Dave mentioned it is quite important to heat up and cool down very quicky. So a nice plate in the oven should be fine. When cooling I used to move it around to cooler part of the steel. That is, use a larger piece of steel then the plate (a 30cm x 30cm steel plate for a 12.5cm x 10cm plate). Place the plate down on the piece of steel then move it to a new cool spot every couple of seconds. This helps to cool it down faster. I dont' think you need to refridgerate the steel but I have not tried it.
JohnFP

First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

Post by JohnFP »

Oh yea, I never had much luck with a paint stripper gun also. Too hot and not enough air flow. I would use a good hair dryer.

For the milkyness we somehow need to harden that emulsion a little more. You could add just a little more glycerine or allow the plate to set longer after sensitizing and before exposing or you could expose the whole plate to a quartz halogen light for a few minutes just after exposing to laser (cover part and do some test stips) or bake just a little longer.

What was the temp of the first two alcohol baths? You wall baths, water and alcohols to be room temp. The last you can heat but again, it doesn't have to be so hot that it burns you.
JohnFP

First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

Post by JohnFP »

Solarenemy, he cannot get fixer.
Kiffdino

First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

Post by Kiffdino »

i got a heating pad, ill use it next time. But i guess it will only go up to maybe 36°C.
I thaught the last alcohol bath was supposed to be hot. And boiling seemed the hottest i could go :D
the fumes where not that bad, they were intense yes, got me boozed up a little. Made the bad results less painful.

next time ill bake for 3 min and i will dramaticaly reduce the distance between colimating lense and object. That should put much more energy on the gelatin during exposure.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I found some very useful adive from the past topics i did not find in the wiki ( or maybe i was just blind :D ):

Dave:
100mw of green light is not really that powerful when it comes to dcg holography.

JohnFP:
In fact 90 seconds with 100mW is enough for a 4x5 plate with regular DCG. As long as your beam spread is just past the 5" mark (6 or so inches). I think I was down to 5 to 20uJ/cm^2. You're up to about 60uJ/cm^2 using 6" spread, 10% loss and 90 seconds.
Michael if you remember we did a 4x5 with Danny's 150mW and the exposure was only 90 seconds (I think). The G307 is about 4 - 10 times more sensitive.


John Fp:
Then filter the gelatin through 2 coffee filters.

Sometime when you blow dry a hologram is starts to turn milky but if you continue, sometimes for minutes, the milkiness goes completely away. Just wondering if you stopped to soon to clear the center. Don't be affraid if the hologram turns milky upon initial blow drying and quit. Continue real close to plate, hot and heavy and see if it clears.

Well, milky means one thing for sure, not hardened enough. So the fix is simple and only has to be one of these if within their range; higher bloom, age film longer, longer exposure, more pre hardening, more post hardening, lower alcohol temps, longer bath in alcohols and slower concentration differences from one alcohol bath to another. So again, just tighten one at a time and work from there

MichealH:
They were exposed between 60 @ 210 mJ, fixed for 2 minutes in diluted fixer, rinsed for a couple of minutes and processed and re-processed a variety of ways. The one in the photo was processed once with 25/70/99% alcohol with the last bath at 124F, air dried and put on a hotplate for a couple of minutes.

Dave:
Simon ,go and get a few more granite tiles and keep them in the freezer .............then you have instant cooling across the plate, then your holos will stay brighter to the outer edges.
I liked using the hot and cold plate as the heating/cooling effect should be uniform across the plate, if not it will cause a differential in the shrinking or setting of the Bragg planes and cause the edges to reconstruct at a slightly different angle than the center. Making the edges of the hologram looking dim .I found this even drying to be very critical when making DCG proximity masters ...........
JohnFP

First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

Post by JohnFP »

i got a heating pad, ill use it next time. But i guess it will only go up to maybe 36°C
.

I believe you will find it gets hotter then that. If I turn mine on and leave it on high for about an hour I find the alcohol is quite hot (not scalding) to the touch. With our body temp at 37C I would image the heating pad gets up to at least 50 or 60C or so.

Take the cloth cover off and leave the pad under the tray for at least and hour and then check it with a thermometer and lets us know what it gets up to.


And again, cover that alcohol at all times except when absolutely necessary to put plate in or out. This keeps heat in and moisture out. I will repeat, I use a food contain with a air tight lid. For 15+ second baths I open the lid and drop the plate in and agitate. While agitating I open the next container. While agitating that I close the previous container and open the next. I always keep them close as much as possible. If it is hard to close completely, just lay the lid on the container until you can come back and seal it. Too much alcohol inhalation can really cause gastro and lung problems. A vent would be best.
dave battin

First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

Post by dave battin »

ok now to really get you confused , i always heat my last Alch bath in a designated lab microwave oven, put into a plastic container with a snap on lid (cracked open please ,so it wont burst open). watch the timing so it wont boil. And presto-chango, hot ALC in 60 seconds! Please be careful ! oh and by the way if you have a martini before processing the fumes wont effect you as much! :lol:
JohnFP

First DCG, Please, Help me find the problem.

Post by JohnFP »

Dave, I personally and strongly think microwaving alcohol is also very dangerous. If you happen to forget it, or overtime it, or fail in any way there is potential for quite an explosion, especially if the micro happens to spark. I think it is much safer to use the heating pad as they are designed not to exceed scalding temperature and the element is self contained and sealed. And they surely DO get the alcohol hot enough. I am not sure why anyone would want to use a stove or microwave to heat a hightly flamable and combustable material. I am sorry but I feel really strong on this point. I surely am not telling you want to do but I don't think advising others to use a microwave to heat 99% alcohol is the safest advice.

All, please read this in it's entirety and note that alcohol vapor is heavier then air and can flow to a distant ignition source and flash back. This is no joking or funning matter

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/i8840.htm

For more Material Safety Data Sheets feel free to visit my web. No sense in getting injured while having fun with an art/scient you love.

http://www.holograms3d.com/Safety/Safety.htm
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