Developer Kit confusion

[MrBungle]

Hello all, first post here.
Apologies for the lack of introduction but I couldn't find a sub-forum for this? (Off topic perhaps?)

I'm about to embark on a lifelong dream of attempting to make a hologram but I'm a bit confused about the developer kits available from PF/Integraf.
I am obviously missing something very basic here but I have read the instructions many times and just can't see where I am misunderstanding.

According to the instructions for the JD-2 and JD-4 kits, they contain enough chemicals to make the following:
1 litre of Dev. Part A
1 litre of Dev. Part B
1 litre of Bleach

The instructions say to add equal amounts of Dev A and B together, enough to just cover the plate.
They also say enough to just cover the plate for the bleach.

Now here is where I get confused.... for a given size of trays(we'll assume they are all the same dimensions) with enough liquid to just cover the film/plate (lets say it is 25ml) I'll be consuming roughly the same volume of each liquid per plate, but there is a total of 2 litres of developer and only 1 litre of Bleach.
So i would have enough developer to do 80 plates, but only enough bleach to do 40 plates?

As I said, I'm obviously missing something very basic and I'm a bit embarrassed to ask!

Things get even more confusing with the JD-3 kit which according to the instructions has enough of the chemicals to make 2 litres again of Developer, 1 litre again of bleach, but now also 500ml (1/2 Litre) of Post Treatment which, when needed for use, is to be then mixed 10 parts to one with distilled water, essentially making it 5 litres?!

I just can't understand the logic in this, surely it can't be right, so where am I going wrong?

Thanks in advance.

[lobaz]

Hello, MrBungle,
and welcome to the forum!

The instructions for JD-2, JD-3 and JD-4 are correct. You missed a simple detail: the bleach can be reused over and over until it stops bleaching. I have bottles several years old and they still work perfectly (but I don't make holograms too often now). On the other hand, the developer, once mixed, is OK for a few hours at most. They you have to pour it away.

The same applies for the post-treatment in JD-3 (ascorbic acid + water).

Best regards,
Petr

[MrBungle]

Hi Petr, thank you for the welcome.

See, I knew it would be something simple!
I actually never considered the bleach could be re-used! I don't recall it being mentioned in the instructions.

I had read advice that developer shouldn't be re-used, to maintain consistency it is better to use fresh developer each plate, I had wrongly assumed this would also apply to the bleach and any other process.

Thanks again!

Edit: I love an ice cold Pilsner Urquell on a hot summer's day!

[lobaz]

Pilsner is great in winter as well!

To the developer re-using: take this advice with a grain of salt. If you try to make your first hologram, then yes, try to be as careful as possible and mix a fresh developer. Once you get some experience, you can safely re-use, the differences are not as big. Or better said, there are other factors as well and they can influence the result much, much more. Once you master the technique and get everything under control, then you should take quality of developer seriously.

I work with JD-4 quite often, for example in classes. It lasts for an hour or two. I do not work with JD-2/3 often (it is also known as CWC2), but I remember it lasts several hours at least.

Petr

[MrBungle]

Thanks again for the assistance Petr.

I'll be using JD-2 to begin with as I've decided to start-out with PFG-01/VRP-M films. Much cheaper while I'm in the beginner mistake making phase.
Once I gain experience and I'm making fewer mistakes I'll graduate myself to the more pricey PFG-03M with JD-4, and then as I gain experience with those, I'd like to give the Ultimate plates a try.

I've just picked up some Amidol to make PBU-Amidol bleach, but now I can't find Cupric Bromide anywhere

[lobaz]

JD-2 process should work well as is. The developer is also called CWC2, the bleach is also called "dichromate". Dichromate bleach is a bit nasty as potassium dichromate is highly toxic. You should dispose it responsibly. It is OK for any transmission holograms, I would not use it for green reflection holograms as it shifts their colour to blue. It also shifts red reflection holograms to green ones, which is usually OK - we are more sensitive to green, so the hologram looks brighter.

While PBU-Amidol is a great bleach, I am not sure if I recommended it. First of all, it does not last too long, you can reuse it just for a few weeks (if I recall). Second, it stains everything it touches.

If you really wish to experiment with other bleaches, try Fe-EDTA bleach (http://holowiki.nss.rpi.edu/wiki/Silver ... DTA_Bleach). It is mostly harmless, last indefinitely, works very, very well.

Finally, Ultimate plates + Ultimate chemistry are much easier to use than PFG-03M. Once you gain some experience with PFG-01/VRP-M (I assume you have both red and green lasers), you can try Ultimates immediately.

Petr

[Din]

One thing Petr did not cover, when it says "add equal amounts of Dev A and B together", it means the two components must be mixed, and the final volume of developer consists of half A and half B. So, if you want 25 mls of developer, you need 12.5 mls of A and 12.5 mls of B. This way, the developer lasts twice as long. The reason is that there are certain components of developer that accelerate the development process. But, these components also "eat" the developer itself. So, if you stored the developer as A and B together, the developer will only last a few minutes and then become useless. To avoid this, you store A and B separately, then mix equal parts just before developing.

Petr, what do you think? Should I tell Alec about this confusion, so he can alter the instructions?

[MrBungle]

Hi Petr,

JD-2 process should work well as is.

Thanks, yes I would use as-is for PFG-01.

I would not use it for green reflection holograms as it shifts their colour to blue.

This was the reason for my choosing PBU-Amidol to use with the VRP-M

While PBU-Amidol is a great bleach, I am not sure if I recommended it. First of all, it does not last too long, you can reuse it just for a few weeks (if I recall).

Yes I was aware of this but I have accurate scales so will just make smaller batches.

If you really wish to experiment with other bleaches, try Fe-EDTA bleach (http://holowiki.nss.rpi.edu/wiki/Silver ... DTA_Bleach). It is mostly harmless, last indefinitely, works very, very well.

Thanks. I have searched my local chem supply for the constituents but, as appears to becoming the norm now, I can get all but one of the chemicals.

Finally, Ultimate plates + Ultimate chemistry are much easier to use than PFG-03M. Once you gain some experience with PFG-01/VRP-M (I assume you have both red and green lasers), you can try Ultimates immediately.

Nice to hear they are easier to use.

Many thanks again.

[MrBungle]

...when it says "add equal amounts of Dev A and B together", it means the two components must be mixed, and the final volume of developer consists of half A and half B....

Hi Din,
Thanks for the reply, I understood the Part A/B thing no problems.
I only got stuck with the uneven volumes overall eg; 2L of Developer versus 1L of Bleach.
In my mind, they would have been consumed at the same rate, eventually running out of bleach and having 1L developer remaining.
I didn't understand that the bleach was far more tolerant to reuse than the developer.

All good now, thanks again!

[lobaz]

One thing Petr did not cover, when it says "add equal amounts of Dev A and B together", it means the two components must be mixed, and the final volume of developer consists of half A and half B. So, if you want 25 mls of developer, you need 12.5 mls of A and 12.5 mls of B. This way, the developer lasts twice as long. The reason is that there are certain components of developer that accelerate the development process. But, these components also "eat" the developer itself. So, if you stored the developer as A and B together, the developer will only last a few minutes and then become useless. To avoid this, you store A and B separately, then mix equal parts just before developing.

Petr, what do you think? Should I tell Alec about this confusion, so he can alter the instructions?

Hi, Din,
I think that it is covered quite well in the Integraf instructions (I checked JD-4 v2007-4 only). It says:

----------
PART A: ... In time (over a few weeks to a few months), the solution may turn yellow due to the oxidation of the ascorbic acid – the solution is still usable. Once the solution turns dark brown, the potency is lost and it must be discarded.

When stored appropriately, Part A can last about 6 months. Part B and the bleach do not require refrigeration and can last 6-12 months.

Once mixed, the combined A&B solution can be used to develop several holograms, and can last several hours.
---------

There is, however, no special mention that bleach can be re-used over and over. In fact, I did not know that either and used fresh bleach before someone told me

So, if you have an opportunity to speak with Alec, that addendum would be nice. And say hi to him for me - maybe he remembers me from ISDH in St. Petersburg.

Petr